Siding with songbird makes no sense

[UnlivingEnd]

First of all: You’re not really betraying songbird as she had intended to use and dispose of you from the very beginning.

If you think about it logically, siding with her makes no sense. Songbird is mentally unstable due to the influence of her illness which makes her unreliable at best and completely untrustworthy at worst.

Are we supposed to be on her side because the game tries as hard as it can to endear her to us? Because it’s completely undercut by the fact that she only intended to use V as a tool to get what she wants while screwing him over. Morally she’s just as reprehensible as the rest of the characters in the dlc.
Why exactly are we supposed to help her? Because feewings? Sorry sweetheart, I’m not about to risk my life for someone I can’t trust at all just because you have a sad backstory that was your own damn fault anyway.

[Bishop-Six]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Mander:

I believe the focus is wrong. Or at least, the frame is.
Cyberpunk as a genre is one where everyone is reprehensible. Has So Mi killed dozens if not hundreds with her half-baked plans?
And how many as V did we already kill in game? Thousands?
So, really, I don’t think we’ve that much more moral high ground. And being an edgerunner (with a cause), we’re used already to be used by fixers and clients. It is literally in the job description.

Helping So Mi or not comes down therefore to how we’ve lived the story through our V eyes: So Mi was damned because of her netrunning talent in her early years just as we as V, damned our and Jackie’s life with our ambition.
It’s not an uncommon story at all in the setting.
Therefore, “my” Vs choose to help So Mi because it’s just what they wished for themselves. They hoped desperately in a hero, a savior...
But because Night City deprives us of a “Personal Jesus”, we can only be one for others, even multiple times (Panam for example). So Mi is just another person we can help, in the end. And so, why refusing the call?
In a greater scope, in the world of cold logic, I also believe that removing So Mi from N-USA clutches is mandatory. When it came out that Songbird was poking through the Blackwall , my decision was already set: via luna shuttle or via bullet to the brain, So Mi had to be freed.
I sleep much more serene in my night city bed, knowing Mayers doesn’t have access anymore to THAT resource.

Typical. Mixing up things up wildly to alter the reception.

Songbird is planning to push a button which causes hundreds of dead unguilty civilans. she is doing it anyway because she made bad decisions in her life and want to safe herself by not caring about others. there are kids in the stadium, families, mothers, old people.

She is pushing the button anyway.

V is mercenary and doing jobs mostly against other criminals. Tyger Claws - human trafficker and rapists, Maelstrom - crazy inhuman murderes etc.

You as V can decide how you play the missions and the story and afaik there are NO civilian victims on his route. On the contrary, V is often helping people to save their lifes, V can decide to not kill anyone at all except few rare cases in the storyline.

So you are saying V is a mass murderer so Songbirds action are fine. Alone that logical twist is highly problematic from the morally PoV and when you think about it you know why. With that argument everybody can literally do everything evil and excuse it with "but the other guy did it too!"

Next point: There is absolutely no indicator for Songbird being a nice person who deserve to be rescued. The only thing which she does is female tears and desperation, that is enough to activate the "white knight mode" for everybody. But its all egoistic, ruthless and brutal what she is doing.

[Irinka]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Bishop-Six:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Mander:

I believe the focus is wrong. Or at least, the frame is.
Cyberpunk as a genre is one where everyone is reprehensible. Has So Mi killed dozens if not hundreds with her half-baked plans?
And how many as V did we already kill in game? Thousands?
So, really, I don’t think we’ve that much more moral high ground. And being an edgerunner (with a cause), we’re used already to be used by fixers and clients. It is literally in the job description.

Helping So Mi or not comes down therefore to how we’ve lived the story through our V eyes: So Mi was damned because of her netrunning talent in her early years just as we as V, damned our and Jackie’s life with our ambition.
It’s not an uncommon story at all in the setting.
Therefore, “my” Vs choose to help So Mi because it’s just what they wished for themselves. They hoped desperately in a hero, a savior...
But because Night City deprives us of a “Personal Jesus”, we can only be one for others, even multiple times (Panam for example). So Mi is just another person we can help, in the end. And so, why refusing the call?
In a greater scope, in the world of cold logic, I also believe that removing So Mi from N-USA clutches is mandatory. When it came out that Songbird was poking through the Blackwall , my decision was already set: via luna shuttle or via bullet to the brain, So Mi had to be freed.
I sleep much more serene in my night city bed, knowing Mayers doesn’t have access anymore to THAT resource.

Typical. Mixing up things up wildly to alter the reception.

Songbird is planning to push a button which causes hundreds of dead unguilty civilans. she is doing it anyway because she made bad decisions in her life and want to safe herself by not caring about others. there are kids in the stadium, families, mothers, old people.

She is pushing the button anyway.

V is mercenary and doing jobs mostly against other criminals. Tyger Claws - human trafficker and rapists, Maelstrom - crazy inhuman murderes etc.

You as V can decide how you play the missions and the story and afaik there are NO civilian victims on his route. On the contrary, V is often helping people to save their lifes, V can decide to not kill anyone at all except few rare cases in the storyline.

So you are saying V is a mass murderer so Songbirds action are fine. Alone that logical twist is highly problematic from the morally PoV and when you think about it you know why. With that argument everybody can literally do everything evil and excuse it with "but the other guy did it too!"

Next point: There is absolutely no indicator for Songbird being a nice person who deserve to be rescued. The only thing which she does is female tears and desperation, that is enough to activate the "white knight mode" for everybody. But its all egoistic, ruthless and brutal what she is doing.

Let's break it down in a straightforward way.

1. "Songbird is pushing the button to save herself!"
Yes, Songbird is making a bad decision, but she's doing it under extreme pressure. In the world of Cyberpunk, people often make terrible choices because they are trapped in impossible situations. It's not about her being a villain—it's about survival in a harsh world. This doesn't excuse her actions, but it explains why she's driven to that point, just like many characters in the game, including V.


2. "V is a mercenary but only goes after bad people."
V is still a mercenary, meaning they work for money. Sure, many of the people V kills are criminals, but that doesn't automatically make V a hero. V is hired to do jobs, and whether or not they're "saving" people depends on the situation. V's motivations aren't always pure or heroic—they're often just doing whatever it takes to get by, just like everyone else in Night City.


3. "There are no civilian victims on V's route!"
It's hard to say there are no civilian casualties in V's missions, even if you try to play a non-lethal or careful path. The world of Cyberpunk is chaotic, and innocent people do get caught in the crossfire. And even if V avoids killing civilians directly, they’re still working within a system that causes harm—taking dangerous jobs, fighting in public spaces, etc.


4. "Songbird shows no indication of being a nice person who deserves to be saved."
People don't have to be "nice" to deserve help. Songbird is a flawed, desperate character, which makes her more realistic. Her tears and fear aren’t about manipulating anyone—they're signs of someone who's scared and trying to survive. Just because she’s made bad choices doesn’t mean she’s beyond redemption or not worth saving.


5. "Your argument is saying 'but the other guy did it too'!"
That’s not the point being made. The point is that in the world of Cyberpunk, everyone is making tough, morally questionable decisions. It's not about saying "one bad act justifies another," but rather that it’s unfair to label Songbird as irredeemable while ignoring the fact that V and others have done questionable things too. Everyone is navigating a morally grey world, so it’s not as simple as calling one person bad and the other good.

I think her tarot card defines her perfectly: "A King of Cups is a creative and emotionally-driven person. They are strong individuals, who realize the importance of feelings. Intuition helps them navigate their lives. When fate is in their favor, compassion guides their actions. When they're at odds with fate, it'd be unwise to trust them."

[Mander]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Bishop-Six:

Typical. Mixing up things up wildly to alter the reception.

Songbird is planning to push a button which causes hundreds of dead unguilty civilans. she is doing it anyway because she made bad decisions in her life and want to safe herself by not caring about others. there are kids in the stadium, families, mothers, old people.

She is pushing the button anyway.

V is mercenary and doing jobs mostly against other criminals. Tyger Claws - human trafficker and rapists, Maelstrom - crazy inhuman murderes etc.

You as V can decide how you play the missions and the story and afaik there are NO civilian victims on his route. On the contrary, V is often helping people to save their lifes, V can decide to not kill anyone at all except few rare cases in the storyline.

So you are saying V is a mass murderer so Songbirds action are fine. Alone that logical twist is highly problematic from the morally PoV and when you think about it you know why. With that argument everybody can literally do everything evil and excuse it with "but the other guy did it too!"

Next point: There is absolutely no indicator for Songbird being a nice person who deserve to be rescued. The only thing which she does is female tears and desperation, that is enough to activate the "white knight mode" for everybody. But its all egoistic, ruthless and brutal what she is doing.

Not really?
And unguilty, on what account? Arguably, every single Dog Town citizen is someone with a rep: Dog Town is where you flee when you overstate your Night City welcome.
Dog Town is a prison without guardians, as far as the rest of the city is concerned. Heck, Night City is the same for the rest of the world: cyberpunk is a terrible and bleak place to live in. Morality is bankrupt on every level, worldwide.
Claiming the moral high ground just because we as V strive to kill only gangoons doesn't really give us a shining pedestal:
“Ehi Padre, you sent me to retrieve a car, and I strangled 20 ‘tinos during the gig… “ is hardly the measure of a good person.
We, as V, can do good, sure.
But we are not a good person. And there isn’t any mental gymnastics that will convince me of the opposite. Without mentioning, that is the basic staple of the Cyberpunk genre as a whole: “no heroes, only characters”. Evil even, full of vices, rage, desperation and all the baggage that comes with it. And it is so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ liberating for that: the struggle of a character that has to decide, by themselves, where to draw their personal line, free of a morality often force feed from above.

That said, each of our Vs breath the adventure differently through us: So Mi deserves to be saved? It depends on your V.
In my case, bullet to the brain or shuttle to the moon are the only acceptable conclusions for So Mi. She’s simply too dangerous to be left in N-USA hands, period.
Why did I choose the “shuttle” for her in the end? Partly because I wanted to flip the middle finger to Mayers, partly because for the first time I think So Mi deserves a choice, even with all the shieats she did previously. EVEN after she tried to use us.
We as V, were ready to do just as much to survive (deal with the devil ending). We may choose differently.
I simply decided to give So Mi an opportunity, Reed and Mayers denied her at every turn.

[UnlivingEnd]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Mander:

I believe the focus is wrong. Or at least, the frame is.
Cyberpunk as a genre is one where everyone is reprehensible. Has So Mi killed dozens if not hundreds with her half-baked plans?
And how many as V did we already kill in game? Thousands?
So, really, I don’t think we’ve that much more moral high ground. And being an edgerunner (with a cause), we’re used already to be used by fixers and clients. It is literally in the job description.

Helping So Mi or not comes down therefore to how we’ve lived the story through our V eyes: So Mi was damned because of her netrunning talent in her early years just as we as V, damned our and Jackie’s life with our ambition.
It’s not an uncommon story at all in the setting.
Therefore, “my” Vs choose to help So Mi because it’s just what they wished for themselves. They hoped desperately in a hero, a savior...
But because Night City deprives us of a “Personal Jesus”, we can only be one for others, even multiple times (Panam for example). So Mi is just another person we can help, in the end. And so, why refusing the call?
In a greater scope, in the world of cold logic, I also believe that removing So Mi from N-USA clutches is mandatory. When it came out that Songbird was poking through the Blackwall , my decision was already set: via luna shuttle or via bullet to the brain, So Mi had to be freed.
I sleep much more serene in my night city bed, knowing Mayers doesn’t have access anymore to THAT resource.

The difference is simple. V kills psychotic gang bangers (largely in self defense) and So Mi kills civilians and betrays people for her slightest convenience.

[Mander]

Początkowo opublikowane przez UnlivingEnd:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Mander:

I believe the focus is wrong. Or at least, the frame is.
Cyberpunk as a genre is one where everyone is reprehensible. Has So Mi killed dozens if not hundreds with her half-baked plans?
And how many as V did we already kill in game? Thousands?
So, really, I don’t think we’ve that much more moral high ground. And being an edgerunner (with a cause), we’re used already to be used by fixers and clients. It is literally in the job description.

Helping So Mi or not comes down therefore to how we’ve lived the story through our V eyes: So Mi was damned because of her netrunning talent in her early years just as we as V, damned our and Jackie’s life with our ambition.
It’s not an uncommon story at all in the setting.
Therefore, “my” Vs choose to help So Mi because it’s just what they wished for themselves. They hoped desperately in a hero, a savior...
But because Night City deprives us of a “Personal Jesus”, we can only be one for others, even multiple times (Panam for example). So Mi is just another person we can help, in the end. And so, why refusing the call?
In a greater scope, in the world of cold logic, I also believe that removing So Mi from N-USA clutches is mandatory. When it came out that Songbird was poking through the Blackwall , my decision was already set: via luna shuttle or via bullet to the brain, So Mi had to be freed.
I sleep much more serene in my night city bed, knowing Mayers doesn’t have access anymore to THAT resource.

The difference is simple. V kills psychotic gang bangers (largely in self defense) and So Mi kills civilians and betrays people for her slightest convenience.

V is also someone who stood watching while a son strangled his father and did nothing to stop it.
V is also someone who actively work with and for gangoons (Wakako, Padre) and smuggler and killers (Rogue, Mr Hands...) to further strengthen their position in the city. And for chump changes, on top of that. We’re utterly ready to ♥♥♥♥♥ us out to the highest bidder.
There is no moral high ground for us as V in the world of Cyberpunk, no fable where we’re the lone strangers come to right all wrongs in Night City.
This is not the setting for such childishness.
Cyberpunk is grim and bleak. Every character on average is scum… even if it can do good, eventually.
But those remain rare and precious occasions, often rewarded with a bullet to the brain.

[YourFreeUseHairbrush]

made sense to me at the time. she knew how the relic worked because she opened its third eye / skill tree. that alone was enough proof to side with her. also reed just flat out murders cuties without giving them a chance to speak, and like he didn't know ♥♥♥♥ about the relic but his friend who knows a guy does.... and i've heard that tune before. specifically the intro to the first mission where you carjack the caliburn to meet jackie.

[UnlivingEnd]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Stain:

made sense to me at the time. she knew how the relic worked because she opened its third eye / skill tree. that alone was enough proof to side with her. also reed just flat out murders cuties without giving them a chance to speak, and like he didn't know ♥♥♥♥ about the relic but his friend who knows a guy does.... and i've heard that tune before. specifically the intro to the first mission where you carjack the caliburn to meet jackie.

Except Reed did turn out to be telling the truth.

[Bishop-Six]

Początkowo opublikowane przez UnlivingEnd:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Stain:

made sense to me at the time. she knew how the relic worked because she opened its third eye / skill tree. that alone was enough proof to side with her. also reed just flat out murders cuties without giving them a chance to speak, and like he didn't know ♥♥♥♥ about the relic but his friend who knows a guy does.... and i've heard that tune before. specifically the intro to the first mission where you carjack the caliburn to meet jackie.

Except Reed did turn out to be telling the truth.

Thats also what everybody is missing somehow:

Reed and Myers offer you a job, once done you get the promised reward. Where is the problem??

[Mander]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Bishop-Six:

Początkowo opublikowane przez UnlivingEnd:

Except Reed did turn out to be telling the truth.

Thats also what everybody is missing somehow:

Reed and Myers offer you a job, once done you get the promised reward. Where is the problem??

For me, and for many, apparently the cost.
And accomodating Mayers and giving back to her her pet netnuke is not something I'm... keen on doing.

EDIT: and on a technicality, we've been recruited by Songbird first... so it kinda makes sense to favor our client's wishes first.

[Irinka]

Początkowo opublikowane przez UnlivingEnd:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Stain:

made sense to me at the time. she knew how the relic worked because she opened its third eye / skill tree. that alone was enough proof to side with her. also reed just flat out murders cuties without giving them a chance to speak, and like he didn't know ♥♥♥♥ about the relic but his friend who knows a guy does.... and i've heard that tune before. specifically the intro to the first mission where you carjack the caliburn to meet jackie.

Except Reed did turn out to be telling the truth.

Yes because he has no reason to lie unlike So Mi. One of the lines V can say to Reed while talking about Song fits perfectly here "Your life is not on a timer. You can't understand"

[UnlivingEnd]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Irinka:

Początkowo opublikowane przez UnlivingEnd:

Except Reed did turn out to be telling the truth.

Yes because he has no reason to lie unlike So Mi. One of the lines V can say to Reed while talking about Song fits perfectly here "Your life is not on a timer. You can't understand"

It doesn’t matter why she lied. What matters are the intention of and the consequences of her lies. Anyway. My point is that Reed is being honest and wants what is in the best interest of both parties. So Mi wants to screw everyone over and kill many people just for the sake of herself.

[Irinka]

Początkowo opublikowane przez UnlivingEnd:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Irinka:

Yes because he has no reason to lie unlike So Mi. One of the lines V can say to Reed while talking about Song fits perfectly here "Your life is not on a timer. You can't understand"

It doesn’t matter why she lied. What matters are the intention of and the consequences of her lies. Anyway. My point is that Reed is being honest and wants what is in the best interest of both parties. So Mi wants to screw everyone over and kill many people just for the sake of herself.

First, saying that "it doesn’t matter why she lied" is a massive oversimplification. Motivations are crucial when evaluating someone's actions, especially in a world like Cyberpunk where survival often means bending the truth. Songbird isn't lying for the fun of it or out of sheer malice. She’s under extreme pressure, caught between forces far bigger than herself, and trying to find a way to stay alive. If we ignore the reasons behind her lies, we’re missing the entire context of her situation, which is essential to understanding her character.

Secondly, the focus on the "intention and consequences" of her lies misses another key point. While her actions may have serious consequences, this isn't because she’s acting purely out of self-interest. In Night City, everyone is playing a high-stakes game of survival, and every decision has far-reaching consequences. If you want to judge Songbird based on outcomes, it’s only fair to apply the same standard to every character, including Reed and the organizations backing him. You can't selectively target Songbird's consequences while ignoring the wider context of the manipulations and agendas from the powers above her.

Now, saying that "Reed is being honest" is also a flawed assumption. Yes, Reed may seem more transparent, but that doesn’t make him the beacon of righteousness here. He’s still a tool of powerful organizations with their own hidden motives, and he’s following orders. Being honest doesn’t mean he’s working for the good of everyone involved—he’s just more straightforward about his intentions, which might be heavily shaped by the agency he works for, and we all know Night City’s agencies don’t operate out of pure goodwill. Honesty doesn’t equal moral superiority.

Finally, the statement that "So Mi wants to screw everyone over and kill many people just for the sake of herself" completely disregards her situation. Songbird isn’t some villain twirling her mustache and plotting chaos for fun. She’s doing what she believes she has to do in order to survive, and to reduce her actions to selfish destruction is a complete misunderstanding of her character. It’s easy to paint her as selfish if you ignore all the external pressures and the no-win scenario she’s caught in. But in reality, Songbird’s decisions are driven by necessity, not greed or malice. She's not trying to screw everyone over—she’s just trying to get out alive.

So, to sum it up, this take falls apart by ignoring crucial details about Songbird's motivations, oversimplifying Reed’s role, and missing the complex, morally gray world these characters are navigating. It’s not as simple as "good guy, bad guy" in Night City, and reducing the situation to that misses the entire point of their conflict.

[Mander]

Początkowo opublikowane przez UnlivingEnd:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Irinka:

Yes because he has no reason to lie unlike So Mi. One of the lines V can say to Reed while talking about Song fits perfectly here "Your life is not on a timer. You can't understand"

It doesn’t matter why she lied. What matters are the intention of and the consequences of her lies. Anyway. My point is that Reed is being honest and wants what is in the best interest of both parties. So Mi wants to screw everyone over and kill many people just for the sake of herself.

Reed doesn't know what's best for So Mi.
Heck, the poor sod doesn't even know what is best for himself.
He needs to bring things back when they made sense: he is, oversimplifying, an old, traumatized soldier that needs orders to function properly (and therefore gets manipulated by Mayers). Regardless of their morality and consequences for those around him (See Alex, stranded in Dog Town for 7 years).
He believes, truly and till his dying breath, that he knows better than So Mi regarding her wellbeing (partially justified) and that Mayers too will keep So Mi alive and well… but those are sadly delusions.
Reed believes in the “honor” of a system that may never have existed.

[[xPIx] InFaMY]

Also just remember Songbird not feeling empathy towards killing a ♥♥♥♥ load of people also has to do with the fact she is practically a borg at this point so her not really caring kinda fits the mold people just seem to not take that in account.

[Mander]

Początkowo opublikowane przez xPIx InFaMY:

Also just remember Songbird not feeling empathy towards killing a ♥♥♥♥ load of people also has to do with the fact she is practically a borg at this point so her not really caring kinda fits the mold people just seem to not take that in account.

I'm... not so sure the reasoning checks out here.
Of all things that So Mi can suffer, cyber psychosis seems to be quite down the list: she remains scared turdless of the AIs behind the Blackwall, pushing back in her mind every time she follows orders…
Lack of empathy isn’t something So Mi seems to suffer… especially because for all the DLC she is anguished by the 11 killed on board the space force one during her attempt to escape. 11 deaths that she is directly responsible for… but no more.
Replaying the DLC made me ponder that So Mi is… quite a beginner in that sense, especially compared to any V, who kills xp bags enemies by the dozens every time they draw...