I kind of wish Evelyn got a better outcome...

[Sol Karas]

Thematically, I understand why she dies. Everyone directly connected to the heist dies - Dex, Jackie, T-Bug, Evelyn, and V (shot in the head, and then a slow death). But with Evelyn... it all just feels so horribly gratuitous what happens to her, she suffers so much, I just wish she could be saved

They wouldn't even need to change much, just instead of Evelyn committing suicide in Judy's bathtub, Judy can send Evelyn somewhere else to recover. Hell, they could even put in a "choices matter" scenario here, have both - if you take too long to locate Evelyn, she goes through so much trauma and commits suicide, but if you're quick, she can hold on. Something like what happens with River Ward's quest line with finding his Nephew - you can get a bad ending with that quest if you don't search for enough clues, or if you don't go with River, etc.

I dunno, thoughts from the crowd? Any other characters you wish could get a little better than they got (besides Jackie and T-Bug, we got a lot about them lol)

[Sol Karas]

I'm well aware of the torture she went through; people also go through similar in the real world and they do manage to come out the other side. And it really is gratuitous - nothing she did in the game earned her that ending. I disagree that she "betrayed everyone". At most the Voodoo Boys (though the implication seems to be that she was going to sell the chip to the voodoo boys to get more than she would have with just the recording) and Dex by trying to cut him out of the deal.

I think an ending where Evelyn could survive her traumas could be as impactful - what happens to her still happens, she would still not be the same as she was before, needing probably years of therapy, and would most likely exit the game around the same time as she does (just sent away, instead of dead). Like even before she dies, finding her and what happened to her is still a massive sucker punch.

[EUIX]

Evelyn had it rough but if you pay attention to the Voodoo boy story you realize she essentially doubled crossed everyone and paid the ultimate price. Her job was supposed to be nothing more then record her meeting with Yorinobu and nothing more, she could have gotten away with a tidy sum for that and be done with it. Instead she went on her own to steal the relic herself and then double cross her fixer at the same time.

Even if she lived she would have a bullseye on her and be marked for death.

In short she was a pawn that didn't understand how dangerous the game she was playing was, Icarus flying too close to the sun.

[Fake]

Originally posted by EUIX:

Evelyn had it rough but if you pay attention to the Voodoo boy story you realize she essentially doubled crossed everyone and paid the ultimate price. Her job was supposed to be nothing more then record her meeting with Yorinobu and nothing more, she could have gotten away with a tidy sum for that and be done with it. Instead she went on her own to steal the relic herself and then double cross her fixer at the same time.

The VDB wouldn't have let her live. Their MO is to use and dispose of ranyons.

[The Big Red 1]

Originally posted by Fake:

Originally posted by EUIX:

Evelyn had it rough but if you pay attention to the Voodoo boy story you realize she essentially doubled crossed everyone and paid the ultimate price. Her job was supposed to be nothing more then record her meeting with Yorinobu and nothing more, she could have gotten away with a tidy sum for that and be done with it. Instead she went on her own to steal the relic herself and then double cross her fixer at the same time.

The VDB wouldn't have let her live. Their MO is to use and dispose of ranyons.

i guess the tv trope hate sink really fits in with these guys. they betray everyone and in turn everyone wants them dead. NO ONE will shed a single tear for them.

[Darkaiser]

Evelyn is the ultimate expression of the Cyberpunk genre. She's a doll with BD rec software so she's more valuable that a banana peel but not by much according to her employers. She wants out...wants to be free from all the people that control her...so when the VDB come to her with a job she sees a chance to steal the egg, the golden goose, and the whole damned nest. She cobbles together the plan, contacts Dex to hire the people (something she can't do unobserved), and lays out the plan.

The best part of the whole thing is how safe it is for her until the actual heist. She scrolls the penthouse with nobody the wiser. Dex hires the talent. Judy helps edit the BD but she's loyal to a fault so no risk there. Right up until the minute they steal the chip, they could pull the plug and walk away.

Then it all goes south. Saburo shows up (no way for her to anticipate that). Yorinobu kills the old man (WAY no way she saw THAT coming!). The case is damaged (without this, Jackie and V are dead, Dex takes the chip and vanishes...until Arasaka finds him). The VDB figure out that Sandra has betrayed them so they attack her through her link at Clouds (possibly their plan all along...they didn't know that if her plan worked she wouldn't be at Clouds ever again). Her busted chip makes her damaged goods not worth repairing which is where Woodman uses her, then hands her off to Fingers (who also performs some disgusting shenanigans), who then hands her off to the Death's Head crew (who totally tip her over the edge of 'traumatized for life').

So the whole story revolves around several people (Sandra, Dex, Jackie, V, Yorinobu) unhappy with their lot in life (for several reasons) who go for thet one big roll of the dice to try to make their lives better...to live the dream...whatever that dream is (T-Bug wants to leave the Net forever, Sandra wants her freedom, V and Jackie want to be legends, Dex wants heaps of eddies).

Live in crap...see a chance to get out...take the shot even though it's 7 out of 10 that you'll be dead in the morning in some alley somewhere. This is the heart and soul of Cyberpunk.

[Fake]

Originally posted by Darkaiser:

The VDB figure out that Sandra has betrayed them so they attack her through her link at Clouds (possibly their plan all along...they didn't know that if her plan worked she wouldn't be at Clouds ever again). Her busted chip makes her damaged goods not worth repairing which is where Woodman uses her, then hands her off to Fingers (who also performs some disgusting shenanigans), who then hands her off to the Death's Head crew (who totally tip her over the edge of 'traumatized for life').

I'm just going to say this for the record.
Fingers did nothing wrong.

The VDB fried her
Forrester raped her
Maiko knew about it and just sent a strongly worded letter
Finger was trying to repair her
He couldn't and contacted Wakako
Wakako was the one that sold the broken doll to the Death's head moth

Evelyn was scrolling, if Judy found any evidence that Fingers did anything to Evelyn, she would have said something.

[Darkaiser]

Originally posted by Fake:

Originally posted by Darkaiser:

The VDB figure out that Sandra has betrayed them so they attack her through her link at Clouds (possibly their plan all along...they didn't know that if her plan worked she wouldn't be at Clouds ever again). Her busted chip makes her damaged goods not worth repairing which is where Woodman uses her, then hands her off to Fingers (who also performs some disgusting shenanigans), who then hands her off to the Death's Head crew (who totally tip her over the edge of 'traumatized for life').

I'm just going to say this for the record.
Fingers did nothing wrong.

The VDB fried her
Forrester raped her
Maiko knew about it and just sent a strongly worded letter
Finger was trying to repair her
He couldn't and contacted Wakako
Wakako was the one that sold the broken doll to the Death's head moth

Evelyn was scrolling, if Judy found any evidence that Fingers did anything to Evelyn, she would have said something.

Not true. Judy said that a lot of the recordings were corrupted. Plus, unlike the rest of the people that took advantage of her, Fingers had the tools and the knowledge to erase the scroll or even make sure she couldn't take it in the first place. Fingers was a slimeball of the highest order. Even if all he did was cop a feel (real flesh instead of the plastic he peddled) and take a pic or two, he got his slice too.

[Darkaiser]

Originally posted by Jinx:

Originally posted by Darkaiser:

Not true. Judy said that a lot of the recordings were corrupted. Plus, unlike the rest of the people that took advantage of her, Fingers had the tools and the knowledge to erase the scroll or even make sure she couldn't take it in the first place. Fingers was a slimeball of the highest order. Even if all he did was cop a feel (real flesh instead of the plastic he peddled) and take a pic or two, he got his slice too.

This says more about you than Fingers. but let me show you what the Devs wrote about Fingers. Because unlike you, I dont judge a person by the look of their skin.

Jig-Jig Street's "best" ripperdoc. "Fingers" - as he calls himself - thinks very highly of himself. Truth is, he's just not the worst. What he lacks in equipment he makes up for with his determination and resourcefulness, which is why some also call him the recycle-doc. His services are sought after not only by the sex workers off Jig-Jig Street, but the whole city - Fingers can fix just about anything and will always start a tab when you're flat broke. True, his quirkiness, obsession with the human body, or his clammy hands can put some people off, but then again - he's, ahem, the best Jig-Jig Street's got

So just know, Fingers was a good guy. Even if he looks the way he looks. He was a man doing what he could for the less fortunate. Bet he does more good for the people than you do.

Wow...judge much? Please allow me to elaborate:

In the dialog tree with Fingers (if you have Tech 8 or higher), V accuses Fingers of installing 'faulty implants' (I presume you need Tech 8 to see if the implants on any of the people in the lobby are faulty. Either way, the woman he's working on while you're waiting outside in nearly blind because of his 'work.')

Fingers knew Forrest by name, meaning they'd done deals in the past. Forrest was a sleaze and a rapist and Fingers saw all the damage from that treatment...and did nothing about it.

After determining that her chip was fried AND she was a near basket-case from being mistreated by Forrest, Fingers sold her off to his fixer.

The quote from the devs above " True, his quirkiness, obsession with the human body, or his clammy hands can put some people off, but then again - he's, ahem, the best Jig-Jig Street's got." This is like saying that Charles Manson wasn't so bad because he liked the Beatles. Jig-Jig street is a cesspit. The 'best Jig-Jig Street's got?'

And you consider Fingers to be a GOOD GUY?

[Vela Darney]

Originally posted by Jinx:

Originally posted by Darkaiser:

Wow...judge much? Please allow me to elaborate:

In the dialog tree with Fingers (if you have Tech 8 or higher), V accuses Fingers of installing 'faulty implants' (I presume you need Tech 8 to see if the implants on any of the people in the lobby are faulty. Either way, the woman he's working on while you're waiting outside in nearly blind because of his 'work.')

Fingers knew Forrest by name, meaning they'd done deals in the past. Forrest was a sleaze and a rapist and Fingers saw all the damage from that treatment...and did nothing about it.

After determining that her chip was fried AND she was a near basket-case from being mistreated by Forrest, Fingers sold her off to his fixer.

The quote from the devs above " True, his quirkiness, obsession with the human body, or his clammy hands can put some people off, but then again - he's, ahem, the best Jig-Jig Street's got." This is like saying that Charles Manson wasn't so bad because he liked the Beatles. Jig-Jig street is a cesspit. The 'best Jig-Jig Street's got?'

And you consider Fingers to be a GOOD GUY?

^no point in talking to you. even the devs have it written he is a good person. but you have to be right because that is how YOU FEEL. You are a joke.

Doesn't take much to be considered a good person in Night City ... or anywhere in the world that is Cyberpunk. Anywhere else, he'd probably still be considered a slimy scumbag.

[Darkaiser]

Originally posted by Jinx:

Originally posted by Darkaiser:

Wow...judge much? Please allow me to elaborate:

In the dialog tree with Fingers (if you have Tech 8 or higher), V accuses Fingers of installing 'faulty implants' (I presume you need Tech 8 to see if the implants on any of the people in the lobby are faulty. Either way, the woman he's working on while you're waiting outside in nearly blind because of his 'work.')

Fingers knew Forrest by name, meaning they'd done deals in the past. Forrest was a sleaze and a rapist and Fingers saw all the damage from that treatment...and did nothing about it.

After determining that her chip was fried AND she was a near basket-case from being mistreated by Forrest, Fingers sold her off to his fixer.

The quote from the devs above " True, his quirkiness, obsession with the human body, or his clammy hands can put some people off, but then again - he's, ahem, the best Jig-Jig Street's got." This is like saying that Charles Manson wasn't so bad because he liked the Beatles. Jig-Jig street is a cesspit. The 'best Jig-Jig Street's got?'

And you consider Fingers to be a GOOD GUY?

^no point in talking to you. even the devs have it written he is a good person. but you have to be right because that is how YOU FEEL. You are a joke.

Um...why the attack? Up until the time you chimed in, this was a civil discussion. Why u mad?

[Wander Wild]

Originally posted by Jinx:

Originally posted by Darkaiser:

Not true. Judy said that a lot of the recordings were corrupted. Plus, unlike the rest of the people that took advantage of her, Fingers had the tools and the knowledge to erase the scroll or even make sure she couldn't take it in the first place. Fingers was a slimeball of the highest order. Even if all he did was cop a feel (real flesh instead of the plastic he peddled) and take a pic or two, he got his slice too.

This says more about you than Fingers. but let me show you what the Devs wrote about Fingers. Because unlike you, I dont judge a person by the look of their skin.

Jig-Jig Street's "best" ripperdoc. "Fingers" - as he calls himself - thinks very highly of himself. Truth is, he's just not the worst. What he lacks in equipment he makes up for with his determination and resourcefulness, which is why some also call him the recycle-doc. His services are sought after not only by the sex workers off Jig-Jig Street, but the whole city - Fingers can fix just about anything and will always start a tab when you're flat broke. True, his quirkiness, obsession with the human body, or his clammy hands can put some people off, but then again - he's, ahem, the best Jig-Jig Street's got

So just know, Fingers was a good guy. Even if he looks the way he looks. He was a man doing what he could for the less fortunate. Bet he does more good for the people than you do.

I don't believe Fingers was ever implied to be a good guy. "Truth is, he's just not the worst" is in reference to his abilities as a Ripperdoc, not at his morals. He's a great Ripperdoc...possibly even the best in Night City....and due to his cleverness he can do anything and fix anything. No where in that quote excuses that he does put faulty implants in sex workers on the cheap (there are multiples in his lobby waiting to be fixed by his own work) as a way to keep his clientele returning. It's shady business, instead of doing something right and well the first time. It is also heavily implied that he allowed them to pay for his services through sex.

Of course, your interpretation of the character is your interpretation. Nothing can truly be 100% verified. I just wanted to expand on that quote, because the quote itself is not saying he's a good person, but a good ripperdoc, in the event that people were judging his abilities on his appearance.

[Graf Erik]

Originally posted by Darkaiser:

Then it all goes south. Saburo shows up (no way for her to anticipate that). Yorinobu kills the old man (WAY no way she saw THAT coming!). The case is damaged (without this, Jackie and V are dead, Dex takes the chip and vanishes...until Arasaka finds him). The VDB figure out that Sandra has betrayed them so they attack her through her link at Clouds (possibly their plan all along...they didn't know that if her plan worked she wouldn't be at Clouds ever again). Her busted chip makes her damaged goods not worth repairing which is where Woodman uses her, then hands her off to Fingers (who also performs some disgusting shenanigans), who then hands her off to the Death's Head crew (who totally tip her over the edge of 'traumatized for life').

I think you're going a bit of route here.
Dex doesn't take the chip, V keeps it. Dex lost any interest in the chip the moment the gig goes south.
During the briefing he says "That why you got a fixer. Anyone try to fck you, they first have fck their way through me". Yeah, so that was a big fat lie. His plan in case something goes wrong is to shoot you in the head and leave ASAP, which in this case wasn't fast enough. Because you don't mess with Arasaka. Anyone knows that, he surely as well. But he's desperate, he was basically chased out of town years ago. I guess he was the only one willing to take a contract against Arasaka.

And its was obviously Evelyn who betrayed the VDBs not Sandra.

But the worst part of Evelyn plan wasn't even mentioned. She overheard from the VDBs that Yorinobu has a Relic V2.0 with a Silverhand engram, and that this can be used to contact 'A' (she has no idea what Alt is).
So she contacts NetWatch and tries to sell it to them, praising the Silverhand engram.
The problem: Yori wanted to hand the relic to NetWatch to 'restore balance'. The Silverhand engram? 'It is a long story'. NetWatch has no interest in Alt or Silverhand.
NetWatch doesn't want to buy it from Evelyn, they are about to get it for free directly from Yori. They just want to stall her. Meaning: Evelyn has no buyer! Her entire plan is bogus. Its only the VDBs that need the Johnny engram, and obvioiusly she can't sell to them.

[Darkaiser]

Originally posted by Graf Erik:

Originally posted by Darkaiser:

Then it all goes south. Saburo shows up (no way for her to anticipate that). Yorinobu kills the old man (WAY no way she saw THAT coming!). The case is damaged (without this, Jackie and V are dead, Dex takes the chip and vanishes...until Arasaka finds him). The VDB figure out that Sandra has betrayed them so they attack her through her link at Clouds (possibly their plan all along...they didn't know that if her plan worked she wouldn't be at Clouds ever again). Her busted chip makes her damaged goods not worth repairing which is where Woodman uses her, then hands her off to Fingers (who also performs some disgusting shenanigans), who then hands her off to the Death's Head crew (who totally tip her over the edge of 'traumatized for life').

I think you're going a bit of route here.
Dex doesn't take the chip, V keeps it. Dex lost any interest in the chip the moment the gig goes south.
During the briefing he says "That why you got a fixer. Anyone try to fck you, they first have fck their way through me". Yeah, so that was a big fat lie. His plan in case something goes wrong is to shoot you in the head and leave ASAP, which in this case wasn't fast enough. Because you don't mess with Arasaka. Anyone knows that, he surely as well. But he's desperate, he was basically chased out of town years ago. I guess he was the only one willing to take a contract against Arasaka.

And its was obviously Evelyn who betrayed the VDBs not Sandra.

But the worst part of Evelyn plan wasn't even mentioned. She overheard from the VDBs that Yorinobu has a Relic V2.0 with a Silverhand engram, and that this can be used to contact 'A' (she has no idea what Alt is).
So she contacts NetWatch and tries to sell it to them, praising the Silverhand engram.
The problem: Yori wanted to hand the relic to NetWatch to 'restore balance'. The Silverhand engram? 'It is a long story'. NetWatch has no interest in Alt or Silverhand.
NetWatch doesn't want to buy it from Evelyn, they are about to get it for free directly from Yori. They just want to stall her. Meaning: Evelyn has no buyer! Her entire plan is bogus. Its only the VDBs that need the Johnny engram, and obvioiusly she can't sell to them.

Very solid points. I'm of the opinion that Dex had several different levels of 'I'm screwed' based on how much the op went south.

V and Jackie die: Oh well...T-Bug cuts wires, Dex is in the clear, Evelyn has no product to sell. Nobody gets anything but except for V and Jackie, no harm done either.

V or Jackie die and they fail to get the chip: Same as before, except that he has an edgerunner to scold and never work with again.

V or Jackie die and they get the chip: Best of all worlds for Dex. Fewer hands out for the split. It won't be until later that he finds out Parker doesn't have a buyer.


It wasn't until Yorinobu and Saburo got into the picture that Dex freaked. Sure, they fight...they fight all the time...but patricide? Seriously? NOBODY saw that coming and so ALL of the plans go out the window. You might as well have told Dex that there was a nuke scheduled to be dropped on the city. All he could think of was Get. Me. Out. Of. HERE!

[Vela Darney]

Originally posted by Darkaiser:

It wasn't until Yorinobu and Saburo got into the picture that Dex freaked. Sure, they fight...they fight all the time...but patricide? Seriously? NOBODY saw that coming and so ALL of the plans go out the window. You might as well have told Dex that there was a nuke scheduled to be dropped on the city. All he could think of was Get. Me. Out. Of. HERE!

Sure can't blame him for that. That was exactly what I was thinking, squeezed into that pillar next to Jackie ... with lots and LOTS of expletives added. I even do get Dex's pov of "mustn't leave any witnesses who can connect me to that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ - ok, Jackie's dead already, nice, now only gotta get rid of the other one." Self-preservation at its finest.