Mikoshi Ending

[Neozgred]

I was thinking about the ending for a long time and the fact that true V dying when he connect to Mikoshi it is interesting, after that you just decide what to do with his copy, so even if there will be no problem with his body and he will be able to live as long as he want then anyway true V dying in the moment when he connect to Mikoshi.

[Muscarine]

V dying at Mikoshi was also what i thought due to Alt's death - once you're connected there's no coming back and if someone disconnects you you're dead, because the "return technology" doesn't exist

Except we're 50 years later and we get to meet a live proof Arasaka found a way to copy without killing since
Saburo had an engram of himself made while he was still alive
When Yorinubo kills him, the engram already exists

Hanako and the board already knew how Saburo died because Arasaka took Jackie's body and managed to make an engram out of what was left, which is also why Jackie's engram is so damaged

That tells you multiple things :
Arasaka know how to create copies of dead people's brain data (Jackie)
They found a way to copy the subject without killing them (Saburo), that comes with Relic 2.0
Engrams cease to "exist" as individual entities when they leave Mikoshi, instead they become simple data which updates the receiving brain

Moreover, that means :
Mikoshi Johnny is a copy of a copy
V didn't die because she stays connected for the entire engram V Mikoshi trip
When engram V or engram Johnny 2 use the mortal well essentially means they become a straight data update to original V

Long story short :

V never dies at Mikoshi, she just gets updated in different manners depending on engram V's choice
Mikoshi engram V only "survives" in Temperance

[Neozgred]

True V was killed by Alt with soul killer after he connect to Mikoshi, his brain was wipe out, so he was dead, there was just empty shell left to put new data on it so you could copy V or Jhonny there.

If you will like to track the game through true V perspective then after connect to Mikoshi there will be just "black screen" because his copy that deciding what next is different entity of V.

I understand your point of view but for me true V is the V with original organic data in his brain, if for a moment there are 2 entities (one digital in mikoshi and one organical in his brain) then for me only one is true and it is organical one.

Alt did not escape to mikoshi, she just copy herself to open web and then she escape through blackwall, Jhonny case was different they copy him and then they kill true Jhonny with soul killer (they said that in the story). So there is way out from Mikoshi to true entity of yourself (because actualy you never go there), but not for didital copy that is stored there.

[Muscarine]

You didn't read my answer

[Neozgred]

I read and i understand your point of view, not that i agree with it. Question is if you understand my point of view?

If someone copy data from your brain and that data is just not used but stored somewhere is that not the same when you go sleep? It is, it is another entity that is "sleeping". For me loosing MY memory is the same like being dead, because my memory is who i am. But it is even more than that, if someone copy same memory of mine after wipe out my brain for me its mean that i died anyway, especialy if they will copy my memory to tottaly different body.

And who know, maybe Saburo was talking with his copy in the past, they had technology to communicate with entities that was stored in Mikoshi. (So you will have 2 active Saburo entities in the moment when they talk) (Even V talk with Saburo when he is still in Mikoshi when you choose Arasaka ending).

I got the same problem with idea of teleportation, i belive that using teleport it killing person that use it and create another person that thinks that it is still the same person.

[Muscarine]

I'm telling you you didn't read

I never implied engrams are one and the same person than the original, in fact i said the opposite, i.e. copies

What you're saying about Saburo is exactly what i just wrote, engram Saburo existed while Saburo was still alive
What baffles me is that you're able to see that but unable to make the connection between the existence of both Saburo with the fact that original V doesn't die at Mikochi

The existence of engram Saburo doesn't justify Arasaka knowing what happened at the Heist
Engram Jackie does - why else in the world would they have bothered tracking down the engram of a low life thief if not to learn exactly what happened
That means engram Saburo, Hanako and the board didn't know until they got their hands on Jackie's body, that means engram Saburo existed at the same time as Saburo did

Meaning Soulkiller 2.0 doesn't kill you, but it requires direct connection to Mikochi in order to do so so it has pretty much only been used on Saburo - that we know of - so far
Until V does exactly that
So V doesn't die connecting to Mikochi, nor does Alt kill her
This is not 2023 technology which essentially was a death sentence, hence why the whole Relic 2.0 plot

Note that 2023 Alt doesn't die because of Soukiller, she dies because Johnny disconnects her which meant flatline back then
Engram Alt is not Alt, it's an Alt copy, basically an AI like every engram

Go over what i told you or this entire discussion is pointless

The Ship of Theseus and Teletransportation paradox which are existing philosophical conundrums are indeed central to the game's narrative, but there are enough cues left around in the game to draw a precise conclusion of what happens to original V, including the fact that she doesn't die or doesn't get wiped at Mikochi

[Neozgred]

Ok so what happen to original V when you choose that Jhonny will stay in V body in your opinion?

Because for me your explanation looks like that:
A. If V stay in body that mean V was never dead.
B. If Jhonny stay in body then V suddenly is dead even when state of its brain before upload is the same like with the first option anyway.

When my explanation looks like that:
1. True original organic V data is copy to mikoshi.
2. True original organic V data is wipe out with soul killer (V is dead).
3. You choose who will be uploaded to empty "dead" brain.

Alt said that V is wipe out and now she can write data like on empty page (at least what she say in polish version)

When V met Alt first time in game Alt basicly saying that she will kill you and copy you back and you can respond to her: "Gotta kill me to save me?" and then she explain why the program that she created is called the soul killer. Check that fragment on YT mate.

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by Neozgred:

Ok so what happen to original V when you choose that Jhonny will stay in V body in your opinion?

The entire Mikochi dialogue with Johnny and Alt is purposely twisted
Johnny talks about a transfer of psyche, but is clear that's not what it is to Alt
When Alt says "i'm not his girlfriend" she means that literally, not out of spite or anything : Mikochi Alt is not Alt Cunningham
She's an AI, there's no room for "souls" in there, it's only data, and that's exactly how she describes the situation

She successfully manages to recompile data from both engram Johnny 1 and original V
She then copies that data to create engram Johnny 2 and engram V, in Mikochi
The point of these engrams is to allow communication despite V being in a coma while connected to Mikoshi to allow the rewriting/update procedure
That also means engram Johnny 1 still exists in the real world, in the Relic, during the Mikochi trip

What she can't do is rewrite DNA, hence the 6 months left to live, but that whole plot point is moot, also addressed through other cues, she only gives her own diagnostic

Then she updates both the Relic and the brain (remember, AIs can rewrite brains in CP77) to account for the outcome of the given choice (mortal well or beyond the blackwall)

In Temperance (or if there was a real death clock in game) V's neural pathway will eventually completely readjust to Johnny configuration (it's already almost there by end game) and her body will stop destroying itself (think of Johnny engram as an autoimmune disease except the outcome is not death but a full Relic control)

Bare in mind that doesn't mean Johnny engram is just an illusion, the Relic 2.0 is in write mode, meaning it takes control of the brain on top of reconfiguring the host's DNA

Out of this, 3 possibilities depending on your interpretation, and none are good, Temperance is the worst ending to me when it comes to original V, much worst than suicide

- V is completely brainwashed to support Relic Johnny (note that Relic engram Johnny is also not Mikochi engram Johnny), so she's still there, she just completely rewritten. That's basically total amnesia.
See the Jeffersons questline if you wonder how that's possible, it is in this universe and you witness AIs doing exactly that already

- V is dead and technically a zombie because the Relic acts as a parasite and essentially takes control of the body and brain to keep it running on Johnny drivers
Engram Johnny is thus able to "live", but the central nervous system is no longer the brain, it's the Relic using the brain
So no more V, only a shell

- V is locked-in, the brain is still capable of analysing what's going on from a V perspective, except the Relic took over
This is essentially the reverse scenario as taking Misty's omega blockers where engram Johnny (or the Relic depending on your perspective) goes full passive, is still aware but can't do anything at all
The brain takes the back seat, the Relic takes the driver seat, meaning V is condemned in permanent passenger mode
If you think we should be at least hearing V trying to fight it, no we wouldn't, just like we don't her Johnny under omega blockers or don't hear V under pseudoendotrizine.

I don't know which one it is, i don't think it's possible to find the correct outcome
If you listen to Panam there's still a way to get V back after Temperance, but for all we know it's wishful thinking
What's important to understand is that it's a terrible ending for original V, although a pretty positive one for engram V

[kreia]

For me i love normally a slightly head scratching plot/ending but why couldnt vs personality etc be uploaded into makoshi killing vs body then be redownloaded into her body as a fresh slate so to speak the ending was a mixed feeling for me it felt like a lot of answers to a lot of important questions boiled down to "um reasons i guess?"

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by kreia:

For me i love normally a slightly head scratching plot/ending but why couldnt vs personality etc be uploaded into makoshi killing vs body then be redownloaded into her body as a fresh slate so to speak the ending was a mixed feeling for me it felt like a lot of answers to a lot of important questions boiled down to "um reasons i guess?"

Ultimately depends on if you believe in souls or not

If you don't then it's a "simple" data adjustment, that's the Alt perspective (the one i'm on board with considering what i said)
If you do then it's a transfer of pysche, that's the Johnny perspective

V dies in neither

[kreia]

Its a hard one to be honest it comes down the question of how much tech can you implant and still philosophically be classed as human, for example i remember a similar disccusion with a friend in work a few months after fallout 4 was out about how kellogg didnt look a day older from when you first see him in the game till the last time you see him and he couldnt accept for the life of him that i the writing was a bit off we argued for days about it and even after a month the only explaination he had left and il never forget it, looked at me and went "well cybernetics i guess" for me its hard to say when a plot isnt fully explained wether its bad writing or just vague

[Neozgred]

Sorry i was editing my post when you write back. I still think that V is not in coma when connected to mikoshi but really really dead, just what i write before:

Alt said that V is wipe out and now she can write data like on empty page (at least what she say in polish version)

When V met Alt first time in game Alt basicly saying that she will kill you and copy you back and you can respond to her: "Gotta kill me to save me?" and then she explain why the program that she created is called the soul killer.

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by Neozgred:

Sorry i was editing my post when you write back. I still think that V is not in coma when connected to mikoshi but really really dead, just what i write before:

Alt said that V is wipe out and now she can write data like on empty page (at least what she say in polish version)

When V met Alt first time in game Alt basicly saying that she will kill you and copy you back and you can respond to her: "Gotta kill me to save me?" and then she explain why the program that she created is called the soul killer.

That's semantics

The word death is used very loosely throughout the game, as shown when Viktor tells V "you died" while referring to Dex shooting, and then a second later explain why V didn't actually die (small calibre, Dex mistake, lucked out)
There's also a whole dual reading layer to get into as to why so many religious and mythologic references, not gonna get into that here

V herself says she already died once multiple times over, that's a figure of speech, both dramatic reinforcement and a dark joke
Alt doesn't agree with this statement either, V didn't die, she's in between

Alt never says she or Soulkiller will kill you literally, not that i can recall of at least, that's a musing on V's own words
She does on the other hand say literally she's verifying the integrity of the copies during the end, engram Johnny 2 and engram V

In english she refers to a blank state, yes, V is wiped, that doesn't mean there's nothing left unless you believe we can have basically an empty fully functional body and brain just missing its soul
Without going into personal subjective philosophy or objective scientific disagreements, this is supported in game by the existence of the pre death Saburo engram
Which proves that contrary to 2023, Soulkiller can now be used without killing the subject, as of 2077
That's the most blatant cue people can't simply ignore when considering V died at Mikochi, because unlike any other argument it's not just words and semantics, it's actually happening in game

But i'll give you that, it's probably the biggest point of contention regarding the story, it's done on purpose, they deliberately made sure not to give a straight answer on that problematic
If anything i'd say the game's plot is more of an attempt to mix both in a coherent reflection, which is a tall order
It asks you do you believe in soul, do you believe you're just data, do you believe in reincarnation, etc, through the plot itself and through a massive amount of metaphors purposely lying around

Data or soul is at the root of the Arasaka vs Night City plot, but that's a whole other topic

[Neozgred]

Thanks for your feedback, i need to think about all of that :)

[Neozgred]

I think i start to understand why i think original V is dead, it is just about that "feeling" before we was born, and i just belive that this happen to original V when Alt wipe out his/her brain, i know that it probably whipe out just memories/psyche, not kill it literally, so maybe when memories/psyche going back to the body that was not really dead then V was not really dead at all.

I started to think more about it, if someone slowly will change me to someone else then i will think that i am still the same person and that i was alive all that time, but if someone change me instantly to someone else, then outcome is the same but is that mean that i die because of that? I dont know... but for my philosophy yes even when there is no logic in that.

And other question, what do you think happen to Jhonny and V copies inside Mikoshi? Do you think Alt kept her promise and after copy one of them back to the brain she delete it or after this she took both of them with her?

[Ygolnac]

Honestly there's not a clear cut ingame explanation on the subject, and it's open to personal interpretation.

Alt clearly says that soulkiller, well, kills you, and the engram recompiling is different from you. She also implies that Johnny engram is not the original Silverhand, and all the memories you live are interpretations and not completly accurate. In fact Johnny blasts everyone like a superhero with a gun, and when you get that gun in the real world it's quite normal. Also there's a big cut between when Adam gets Johnny in the zern garden and when they are on the roof again. Not to say that probably it was Johnny to kill Alt disconnecting her while she was jacked in.

On the other hand Alt itself is a selfless digital entity that has only logic and materialistic thoughts, sho it might miss something or don't know the whole picture or plain telling lies to V to push her to leave the body to Johnny.

Then we have the discrepancy of Saburo having his own engram before he died, and the other thing is that if an engram needs a body with a similar DNA, how could Johnny get control of V before her DNA got recompiled?

Also in the endings where you become an afterlife legend your partner says you have changed, you seem void and you walled out everything, then decides to leave. Can it be that the new V is a digital recompile and is devoid of feelings, and the person most close to her notices that?

So there's not a final word, but only personal interpretations. In my opinion after soulkiller V is no more, my personal canon ending is the afterlife legend one, and I RPed that V became a digital feelingless being and is left by Judy. Since she would die in an hospital in the next 6 months, wich is not exactly going out in a blaze of glory, she decide the last suicidish mission in orbit.

This is how I like the story arch of my V, but I cannot say without doubt that the ones that think V is still alive and the six months left are a lie are wrong.