The Heist!! [SPOILERS]

[Actalo]

I was just thinking about the heist and how it got put together - and it feels like there's a lot of missing pieces, as in, how did the Voodoo Boys originally plan to steal the Relic?

Here's what I know:

1. VDB knew what the Relic was.
2. The VDB also knew who was on the Relic.
3. VDB knew Yorinobu stole the relic.
4. We can surmise the VDB also knew Yorinobu was keeping the Relic in the penthouse.
5. VDB then contract Evelyn to (ONLY) record a virtu of his penthouse.

Here's the rub, though:

The VDB are notoriously xenophobic and known for killing ranyon mercs who are desperate or dumb enough to work for them; therefore, they only get the desperate or dumb. It's extremely doubtful any merc worth his or her salt would work directly for them without going through a fixer. But... No fixers work with them. Mr. Hands only gives V a meeting place and is then "hands off".

Dex DeShawn knows Evelyn is somehow connected to the VDBs but relies entirely on Evelyn to sell the Relic, which is why he doesn't take it from V. If Dex knew who to, and how Evelyn was planning on selling the Relic, he woulda taken the Relic sometime before or during flat-lining V.

To sum it up:

The VDBs hired "de doll, de ♥♥♥♥♥" Evelyn to JUST record a recon virtu (and probably planned to kill her) but were double-crossed when Evelyn hired Dex to form a crew of their own and steal it to sell to someone NOT the VDBs or Netwatch.

But again, if they weren't double crossed, how did the Voodoo Boys plan to steal the Relic?

Any ideas?

[Graf Erik]

Well, they way I put the pieces together after the third playthrough and picking up lots-a clues that I missed the first and second time...

The VDBs hired the doll to check where exactly the relic is stored in Yoris appartment. After that they needed someone to walk in there and grab it. Someone stupid enough to go against Arasaka, expendable, and most importantly: Someone who must under no circumstances know that he works for the VDBS, because chances are 'saka will grab them within hours, download their mind and then dissect every thought they ever had.
And these expandable gonks were you and Jacky.
They realized that doll was 'too smart for her own good' and so didnt kill the 'ranyon' which is their normal course of action. Instead they got Ev a fixer, someone from outside: Dex.
Dex was retired, in exile, Evelyn certainly didnt get his number from the yellow pages.
So who contacted Dex? It was T-Bug. They were partners of old, knew each other. T-Bug planned the whole heist, for the VDBs. She had planned it all before Dex ever contaced you, it was also T-Bug who told him to buy the Flathead (from his own money), and it was T-Bug who told him to contact V and Jacky.
It was (probably) also T-Bug who hacked into Militech and leaked the thing with the Flathead to Maelstrom (but it might have been anyone else from the VDVs, there is no hard evidence here)

The plan was simple: You walk into Konpeki Plaza, grab the relic, give it to Evelyn. Evelyn gets 5 bullets to the head an hour later and the VDBs have the relic. Shes just a random doll, she has no security whatsoever. Like taking candy from a baby.
Saka grabs you and Dex, and all you know is: We were hired by an Evely Parker (who happens to be dead).
Dex? Had no idea who he was working for. Evelyn Parker? He knows nothing about her. 'Someone from Pacifica told him to stop askimg questions'
And T-Bug? Migth be dead? You never get any confirmation that she really died, she just disappears. Wouldnt surprise me if the VDBs 'retired' her just to be sure.

An almost foolproof plan.
Noone could have forseen that Yori would strangle his father right in these 5 minutes when you were in his appartment.
And the second thing they didnt see coming was that Woodman decided to keep Evelyns body, then pass it over to Fingers, who fixed it just enough so that she doesnt really die. Pawned her of to Wakako, who sold her to the Scavs, who kept her alive just long enough so that V could find her, hand her to Judy. And Judy, the BD artist that she is, managed to recostruct just a shadow of a image that linked her to the VDBs.
That was shoddy work from the VDBs. The original plan required to take the relic from Ev, so they had to get to her physicaly anyway.
But since Ev never got the relic, the VDBs though they could do it the easy way. No need to go to Ev personaly, just fry her brain over the net and case closed.

[Silverbane7]

might explain why T-Bug was so cold most of the time, if she was working for the VDB's rather than herself.

so ether she got toasted by her own (the VDB's) who were always monitoring her (since it was 'firs time in realspace' in the booth at Afterlife, maybe they monitor everyone like they did V?) and knew when things went bad...

Or she ended up in Mikoshi, like the rest of the runners who went up against Arasaka.

thruthfully, i always considered Dex to be the main issue (till now)
figured he planned to ghost Jackie and V so he wouldn't have to pay them. thats why he was so chill when he found out the client wanted to cut him out.
40% of zero is still zero, after all.
Sure, he freaked out when V stood there telling him what went down.
but its like Evelyn said, two kinds of Fixers.
the ones that are smart (and still alive lol) and the other kind.
if you choose 'we gota get outa here', he slips for a second and goes 'WE?!' he's also got a shard on the coffee table, talking about crystal palice....which leeds me to think he always planned to get rid of us.

hell, plots within plots...someone at CDPR is a Dune fan, that's for sure :P

[Vela Darney]

Just wanted to add, I think the way the VDB found out about Yorinobu having the Relic and Johnny on it is that they got their hands on Yori's and Netwatch's correspondence. You can find it in the penthouse, actually, on the computer. It's translated wrong, though - in original Polish, it's not Netwatch wondering why Yori put Johnny on the chip but Yori wondering why Netwatch basically requested Johnny on the chip.

So - Netwatch knows about the Relic. Netwatch also found out or figured out Arasaka's got Johnny's engram stashed somewhere in Mikoshi. Then, one day, Yori contacts them and offers to get them the Relic 2.0 (internal use only) prototype. They see their big chance and request, supposedly to proof it really works, Yori put a functioning engram on it: Johnny Silverhand. Like the VDB, Netwatch wanna use Johnny to lure Alt. Only that, unlike the VDB, they don't wanna strike a deal with her - they wanna trap her. Alt's one of those rogue AI's powerful enough to be a real threat to the Blackwall. So that would be one major threat removed.

Solid plan, only that the VDB get wind of the deal and get their own scheme started cos they, too, are looking for a way to get in touch with one of the more powerful rogue AI's beyond the Blackwall to strike a deal for when ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan in the not so far future (which is implied throughout the game). Now they know where they can find an engram that they can use to catch the interest of one of those AI's, namely Alt Cummingham. And they also know - since they'd be monitoring Yorinobu, either generally or at the very least ever since he struck the deal with Netwatch - that Evelyn is a regular "guest" at his penthouse. Cue what Graf Erik wrote above.

(Question popping up in my brain now: If the engram on the chip had been anyone's but Johnny's - would the heist still have happened? Since it was Johnny's engram the VDB were after, and not the Relic per se.)

[Actalo]

Originally posted by Vela Darney:

(Question popping up in my brain now: If the engram on the chip had been anyone's but Johnny's - would the heist still have happened? Since it was Johnny's engram the VDB were after, and not the Relic per se.)

This is important, yeah. No Johnny, no Heist. It seems interesting everyone was after the Relic for its tech but the VDB only cared about accessing the engram as bait for Alt.

Going back to the earlier posts, Dex definitely knew Evelyn was connected to "some brothas from Pacifica" - this heavily implies the VDBs. Originally I had thought perhaps Dex had hid out in Pacifica during his two year exile and did so through T-Bug, who may have had netrunning connections to the VDBs. Or herhaps T-Bug is actually Haitian but second generation and thus no accent.

But this is unlikely since Dex, again, had no idea what to do with the chip and so didn't take the chip. It's possible T-Bug could have linked Evelyn with Dex, but it's far more likely Evelyn went to the Afterlife looking for a crew and was turned down or referred to Dex as someone who puts together temporary crews and/or risky ops.

If the VDBs had been connected at all to T-Bug and by extension Dex's crew, they would have sought out V for the chip. But they do not. Instead they get trapped trying to recon Netwatch systems. Why were the VDBs in Netwatch systems, to find out what they were doing in the GIM? Or were they looking for information on the stolen Relic?

[Silverbane7]

If you check the laptop in the projection room In the cinema, you can find messages between netwatch and Evelyn.

Remember.
"Its simple. Men like pillow talk a bit too much."
That's her, saying that Yorinobu liked to yap about stuff after a good bang.
That's how she knew about the biochip. The VDB's hired her to make a virtu of his suite, because they knew he used her services. They did not know (till she mentioned it) that she knew what they wanted.
On top of that, there was an FIA/NUsa informer inside Konpeki/Arasaka.
My money is on Hellman (because the message on the laptop in spaceforce1 said that 'the informer vanished before we could gain any more Intel)

So there were messages flying about between netwatch, Evelyn, Yorinobu, Saburo, Hellman and the NUsa, any of which might have tipped off the VDB's in the first place.
Wonder if Slider was part of it too.
He spent all his time in the net, so its possible that the chip/Johnny issue, his finding out that netwatch were in talks with Yorinobu for Johnny (via the Reliquary Relic) was what caused the split between the Pacifica VDB's and the Dogtown VDB's.

[clavis_darkheart]

1. There is confirmation that T-bug is dead, after the heist talk to the person she sent you to get the Ping hack. She'll state 'she was found dead in her apartment and that's what happens when you tangle with a corp.'

2. Netwatch also wanted Alt and knew that Johnny would be a way to draw her out from behind the blackwall. As it's states in one of the messages or might be she herself did, or Johnny did that netwatch was looking for her. (Can't really remember but know it's talked about in the game.)

3. Dex didn't take the chip because at that point it was just another reason for Arasaka to come after him, also he no longer wanted to sell it, he just wanted out. Deciding he wanted the quiet life, instead of going out in a blaze of glory. As he states 'Guess i've chosen the quiet life after all.' also if you listen, or hang about he's chartering a flight to the Moon for 1 when you go into the bathroom to wash your face.

4. Dex didn't know that Evelynn was connected to 'some brothas from pacifica' until he tried vetting her, and getting more until about her. Showing that the VDB's were still watching her, and didn't want other people drawing attention, or looking into her. Hence why they told Dex to 'stop looking'

5. the VDB's wanted Alt cause she could guide them safely beyond the Blackwall, and to the info and everything beyond it. Now wether it was by trapping her (if they had tried she'd of killed them, and not made a deal with them) or making a deal with her (more then likely as she didn't just fry their brains, as she would have if they had tried to trap her.) just look at what she did to Arasaka at the end, she tore that place down hard cause they had used it to trap her. Think she'd of done anything different if VDB had tried? I don't.

6. First time in real space - was because they all were together (V, Jacky, and Her) where before she was usually on comms providing net overwatch for the other two. Hence it was their first time being together in real space.

7. Evelyn set up the whole thing herself, without help from the VDB. As the VDB's just wanted her to shoot the interior, so they could put together their own team. Her sole job was to do recon, so Madam Bridgett and others could figure out the best way to steal it.

Instead Evie decided to steal it herself, and make some serious eddies to where she could get out of a life she hated.

Do you really see the VDB's letting anyone go to a fixer to do their dirty work? In several communications it's the VDB's that got in touch with someone and hired them for a job, then it was the VDB's that offed them themselves.

[Graf Erik]

Originally posted by clavis_darkheart:

1. There is confirmation that T-bug is dead, after the heist talk to the person she sent you to get the Ping hack. She'll state 'she was found dead in her apartment and that's what happens when you tangle with a corp.'

No, not really. What 'Yoko' actually tells you, is that she HEARD that T-Bug was found dead. 'They found her'. She doesnt actually know it, shes just relaying rumors.
Essentially, T-Bug dies offscreen without any confirmation.

Originally posted by clavis_darkheart:

7. Evelyn set up the whole thing herself, without help from the VDB. As the VDB's just wanted her to shoot the interior, so they could put together their own team. Her sole job was to do recon, so Madam Bridgett and others could figure out the best way to steal it.

Instead Evie decided to steal it herself, and make some serious eddies to where she could get out of a life she hated.

Do you really see the VDB's letting anyone go to a fixer to do their dirty work? In several communications it's the VDB's that got in touch with someone and hired them for a job, then it was the VDB's that offed them themselves.

Evelyn THOUGH she set up the whole thing by herself, but the VDBs never let her out of sight. They knew exactly that she was 'to smart for her own good'.
No, they would definetly never would let her go to a fixer, thats why they got T-Bug to call Dex back to town so he could organize the whole thing for her. As you said yourself, the VDBs would have just 'offed her' once her job was done.

T-Bug already knew whats on Evs BD before she saw it together with V. Thats why she told Dex to buy the Flathead (which he had to pay by himself, because Ev is just a doll and couldnt possibly afford it)
In fact, you can ask Brigite about it, and she confirms that she 'orcestrated' the whole thing.

Seriously, think about it:
Do you really belive, that a random doll, without connection, without money, without experience, without any idea about what she's even doing there managed to organize the Konpeki Plaza heist with a retired fixer from out of town?
And do you really think, that the VDBs, after having confirmed the Relics exact position, just sat back and picked their nose for a few weeks while Evevlin assebled a team to steal it, even though they definetly knew that they couldnt trust here and their usual approach is to simply kill all outsiders, just to be sure, after they've done what the needed them for?

[Actalo]

Originally posted by clavis_darkheart:

4. Dex didn't know that Evelynn was connected to 'some brothas from pacifica' until he tried vetting her, and getting more until about her. Showing that the VDB's were still watching her, and didn't want other people drawing attention, or looking into her. Hence why they told Dex to 'stop looking'

I think it's reasonable for a fixer to look into a client offering them a job, especially one involving stealing from Arasaka. So Dex vetting Evelyn can be assumed to be just fixer SOP. However, when the VDBs reached out and told him to stop looking, that should have been a Red Flag and I'm not sure why Dex only mentions this in passing. Everyone knows the VDBs are bad juju and cannot be trusted to fulfill any agreement. I think this begs the question: why did Dex, knowing the VDBs were involved in some way, agree to the heist?

Originally posted by Graf Erik:

Do you really belive, that a random doll, without connection, without money, without experience, without any idea about what she's even doing there managed to organize the Konpeki Plaza heist with a retired fixer from out of town?
And do you really think, that the VDBs, after having confirmed the Relics exact position, just sat back and picked their nose for a few weeks while Evevlin assebled a team to steal it, even though they definetly knew that they couldnt trust here and their usual approach is to simply kill all outsiders, just to be sure, after they've done what the needed them for?

This is a good point and I only don't have the answer - which is why I posed the original question on how the VDBs planned to steal the Relic. The obviously didn't trust Evelyn and saw her as a liability. There's no evidence they used Evelyn as their proxy to set up the heist crew and definitely would have tried to set up a crew of their own.

Your earlier point about the Flathead is interesting, too. How did T-Bug get the building schematics in oder to then know they needed the Flathead? How did T-Bug know there was only one Dweller? Where did Dex and T-Bug get all their recon information? There seems to be a lot of missing information about the planning of the Heist. It could just be a narrative oversight on CDPR's part, or yeah, maybe there was a connection between T-Bug and the VDBs we're not made aware during the game.

[Graf Erik]

Originally posted by Actalo:

There's no evidence they used Evelyn as their proxy to set up the heist crew and definitely would have tried to set up a crew of their own.

I'd say there is evidence.

During The Information you watch Evelins BD, the one she made in Jorinobus suite for the VDBs (Ev kept a copy for herself).
Judy tells you that she just finished working on the raw data. You are the first one to see it! Thats important.

Before starting the BD you call T-Bug, via phone. Bug is watching the whole thing together with you, via phone.

So you watch the BD and then this happens
https://youtu.be/2QBvNbR2S4E?t=1338
(22:18)

You drink a sip of champagne.
V: "Wow, champagne's decent. The taste boosted somehow?"
T-Bug "No. Just the price. Same bubbly you'll be sippin' in realspace soon"

Just some of-hand comment, right?

But T-Bug is connected via phone, she cant taste it! V can, Ev has, Judy processed the BD so certainly knows it. But T-Bug?
There is just one possible explanation for here knowing how the champagne in Jorinobus suite tasts: She has seen Evs BD before.

And since Judy just finished this BD a moment ago, she cant have possible seen this version. There is just one other copy, the one the VDBs kept.
->T-Bug has a copy of Evs BD from the VDBs

Why did the VDBs gave T-Bug a copy?
Because she is the the one setting up the VDBs team for the heist. You are that team. T-Bug brought in Dex and suggested Jackie and you. Ev is just there to take the blame.
So yes, you are absolutely right: They definitely would have tried to set up a crew of their own. Via a proxy, and that proxy is T-Bug

As I already explained: Its important that the team doesnt know that it works for the VDBs, cause chances are that Arasake will catch them in no time, and they wont hesitate to soulkill you to learn who gave the orders and now has the relic (they even soulkilled Jackies corpse on the ofhand chance to find something usefull).

[clavis_darkheart]

I've never ran across any information that Ev actually delivered the recording to VDB's. Only that they met, and she was offered the job.

T-bug is jacked into you, which means she can see, and taste things through the BD that you see and taste. As she's using your senses, it's why you had to open a port so all the information you collect, goes to her. She's basically piggy backing on you, through the Net. So when you tasted the champanne (blah word stupid hard to spell for me lol) she did as well. It's also why Judy was worried as T-Bug could of used you to get into the Moxes stuff.

If T-Bug was alive after the Heist, and working for the VDB's she'd know about Dex, and Judy. Which means Dex, and Judy would of been numero uno on the VDB's list to get information from, then to get rid of. Especially Judy who was close to Ev, yet Judy wasn't even attacked, or bothered by the VDB's.

Dex wasn't in retirement he was in hiding, as 2 years ago a run went south, and he fled. Not sure but think there is some info, and it involved the VDB's. Will have to look again for it on this run through. Plus he's got an ego until his back is against the wall then he pulls up stakes, and wipes out any survivors.


I figure Dex was running low on creds, or decided to get back at the VDB's for the aforementioned bad run. Kinda a screw you I'll do what I want, also he might not of drawn the conclusion that the VDB's were trying to use Ev which was an oversight on his part.

As to how T-bug got the schematics, and stuff. She's a top rate net runner, with access to other net runners, any of them could of got the schematics, and stuff from one of the boards she mentioned, or posted them on it. the ones where she quotes 'Seen alot of excited birds chirping about seeds falling through the cracks on the BBS board'

Though the game it seems that this was all the next day, I believe that it was longer then that. that there was more time involved in gathering the intel and stuff.

Though most of this is speculation, some is from info in the game that you run across.

[Silverbane7]

Well, I finally managed to talk to the rollercoaster guy.
(After completing the coaster quest proper, then doing the Judy questlines, then coming back after some time)

I ask him, where is everyone? He says things have changed around Pacifica.
I ask him about the VDB's, he wants to know why I care.
I tell him knew Mamon Brigitte and Placide, worked for em.
So he asks me, do I want the gossip or the data. I opted for the gossip.
He tells me that Mamon Brigitte has contacted one of the powerful AI's, gone thru the Blackwall. Soon, she will be back to take everyone back with her....now, everyone has suddenly become very religious.
I could ask him what religion has to do with it, but I chose to say he sounded sceptical.
He tells me the AI, they like genie in a bottle. You get just what you ask for. You say 'make me smaller' and de mother*cker rip your damn head off, man.
He tells me someone he's close to a woman, she went with them. She's got a child, a little girl. If she could get back to her, she would have done so by now.
So I think he feels they won't be coming back.

Just what I've been saying. Brigitte thought she was smart. But she forgot that there is a difference between smart and wise.
Intelligent people know what rain is, know what lightning is, what trees are. But wise people know not to shelter under a tree in a lightning rainstorm.
She asked Alt 'take us safely tru de Blackwall' but I bet she forgot to say 'then bring us safely back tru here'.
She got exactly what she asked for, just not what she wanted.

From talking with Slider and his door guards if you just walked away from the VDB's (the guards will let you in without a fight) you can find out about a rift between the Pacifica and Dogtown VDB's groups.
The ones in Dogtown are not happy with Brigitte and her lot poking and prodding the Blackwall. They don't consider the AI's to be the new, digital Loa's. Where as it seems like Brigitte and co do.
The rollercoaster guy used a couple words to talk about them, I've not seen that word, but I'm pretty sure its a phrase to do with Loa. Which is why he said about Pacifica's population suddenly becoming religious.

Streetkid V can mention when talking to Jackie at the noodle stand about Dex. And Jackie will tell you about what happened. Iirc, gang turf war and Dex got caught in the middle.
Plus, he (Dex) says "some brothers from Pacifica" so I have to wonder if he and T-Bug were not from there, like Kirk Sawyer.
("Keep forgetting your not from round here, Kirk. You live way way over there in Pacifica." "Meaning, you best think twice before you start somethin with a local son")

To be truthful, I still go for the Dex was planning to waste us all along line.
We say as much to Jackie if you pick the 'know my way around fixers' line.

"Don't get me started on Fixers... They catch a client, find the cheapest gonk to do the job, then drop their corpse at the nearest landfill

[Graf Erik]

Originally posted by clavis_darkheart:

I've never ran across any information that Ev actually delivered the recording to VDB's. Only that they met, and she was offered the job.

Sorry, but isnt it obvious? The VDBs knew who Ev was, where she worked, that she contacted Dex. You really think the just let her walk away without handing over the BD?

Originally posted by clavis_darkheart:

T-bug is jacked into you, which means she can see, and taste things through the BD that you see and taste. As she's using your senses, it's why you had to open a port so all the information you collect, goes to her. She's basically piggy backing on you, through the Net. So when you tasted the champanne (blah word stupid hard to spell for me lol) she did as well. It's also why Judy was worried as T-Bug could of used you to get into the Moxes stuff.

Nah, sorry. I really dont think you can run a full BD just via phone. I quess we just have to disagree here.
Honestly, if in cyberpunk there was the technology to transfer taste via phone, I think we knew that.

Originally posted by clavis_darkheart:

If T-Bug was alive after the Heist, and working for the VDB's she'd know about Dex, and Judy. Which means Dex, and Judy would of been numero uno on the VDB's list to get information from, then to get rid of. Especially Judy who was close to Ev, yet Judy wasn't even attacked, or bothered by the VDB's.

Well, as I said, I think T-Bug died. The VDBs wouldnt let her live, she knew too much. (I just pointed out that there is no proof of her death, so she could be alive).
In any way: Yeah, they obviously knew about Dex. (They told him to stop asking about Ev) So? He died.
And yes, they knew about Judy. So? They didnt need her, they knew where Ev was: In the Clouds where they couldnt get her cause its under TygerClaws protection.

Originally posted by clavis_darkheart:

Dex wasn't in retirement he was in hiding, as 2 years ago a run went south, and he fled. Not sure but think there is some info, and it involved the VDB's. Will have to look again for it on this run through. Plus he's got an ego until his back is against the wall then he pulls up stakes, and wipes out any survivors.

Yeah, Jacky called it 'retirement' and even 'vacation'. According to Royce it was more of an exile. 'Had to leave town after ruining half of Pacifica' (Which again might imply that he had some connections to the VDBs back then)

Originally posted by clavis_darkheart:

As to how T-bug got the schematics, and stuff. She's a top rate net runner...

We dont really have much to estimate T-Bugs competence level. We did just one gig with here, where she gave light net support for a 5 minute rescue job. Doesnt sound particular 'top rate' for me. I'd guess the VDBs got her the details. But yes, thats just speculation.