We need more first-person games, BUT...

[Orion Invictus]

...they need to show the character in reflections and put the camera in the eyes, not the chest.

Maybe it's because I'm so tall IRL (a little under 2 meters), but having the camera in the chest makes me feel so short, it's weird. Especially when I enable photo mode and see that, no, I'm supposed to be significantly taller.

It was the same thing with DOOM Eternal. I felt like I was playing Danny DeVito as the Doomslayer (which would actually be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ awesome if that were the case, but that's a matter for a different topic).

Props for actually SHOWING the character's body, though. Not every first-person game does that, which feels weird. Am I playing a full-bodied character or a floating camera, y'know?

[Simbolic]

Thing sucks the most to me about first person is not having Peripheral Vision. It's like wearing a box on the head with the front of it cut out. The best concept is what they did in Elder scrolls and fallout game. Being able to alternate between third and first person.
Which was great when needed to get a closer look in First person. While also being able to get a better look over your surroundings in third person.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Simbolic:

Thing sucks the most to me about first person is not having Peripheral Vision. It's like wearing a box on the head with the front of it cut out. The best concept is what they did in Elder scrolls and fallout game. Being able to alternate between third and first person.
Which was great when needed to get a closer look in First person. While also being able to get a better look over your surroundings in third person.

The problem is that compressing such a wide and curved POV (the total angle of human vision is something like 120 degrees, if I'm not mistaken) onto a flat surface like a screen would look very strange.

It's just not feasible until if and when we all move to curved screens or VR.

[asarokk]

Most video games have the camera protruding out of the chest or neck instead of eye level and it's been that way basically since first person games.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by asarokk:

Most video games have the camera protruding out of the chest or neck instead of eye level and it's been that way basically since first person games.

Yes, I know.

[asarokk]

You only mentioned Doom Eternal. But anyway, I can sympathize being tall myself. It's one thing playing a default protagonist, but not being able to change height or build with a customizable character creation is always disappointing.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by asarokk:

You only mentioned Doom Eternal. But anyway, I can sympathize being tall myself. It's one thing playing a default protagonist, but not being able to change height or build with a customizable character creation is always disappointing.

If I were to mention every single first-person game, I'd be here for days. I mentioned one as an example, not an exhaustive list of occurrences.

[EricHVela]

CP positions the camera at V's head height, but V's head is missing in the first-person view. The camera repositions itself in front of V's head for mirror views. (You can tell by the way the camera rotates on an axis in front of V when looking in a mirror.) If you saw the weirdness in the early 1.x versions, the head was actually translated backward with a stretched neck in first person to place the camera in front of V's head while staying at head height.

When the camera's inside V's head, the head cannot be rendered or the player'll see surfaces meant to only be seen from the exterior.

As far as I can tell as my RTX development experience is still extremely limited, surfaces that are flagged to be unrendered (invisible to the game camera) cannot cast RTX reflections, while surfaces that are visible to the camera can be flagged to not cast RTX reflections. I'm guessing that the shortcuts taken for making RTX a viable RT technology require surfaces that aren't flagged as unrendered.

The old pre-RTX texture hacks for reflections don't mix with RTX reflections.

(E: I find it interesting that unrendered surfaces can cast shadows. It's a completely different process than RTX, though. This existed before RTX.)

My recommendation for a fix is a camera that sits immediately in front of the face, anchored to the head rotation rather than to the neck. This will allow the face to be rendered without being seen by the camera but able to cast an RTX reflection.

If you turn your head 45 degrees to the left and 45 degrees to the right, the point of perception shifts and stays in front of the face instead of staying at the same location.

This will cause problems for first person players expecting the point of perception to anchor on the neck (or chest in most cases). I've not seen any first person games that offset the camera in front of the character's face. It's always rooted to the torso in some way.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by EricHVela:

CP positions the camera a V's head height, but V's head is missing in the first-person view.

Does it, though? The distance to V's arms doesn't make it seem that way, unless they're always shrugging or intentionally lowering their head.

Originally posted by EricHVela:

When the camera's inside V's head, the head cannot be rendered or the player'll see surfaces meant to only be seen from the exterior.

I'm not a game developer, but can't you just make them invisible from the inside? I've noclipped inside things in older video games, some things were invisible if you looked at them from the inside.

[EricHVela]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by EricHVela:

CP positions the camera a V's head height, but V's head is missing in the first-person view.

Does it, though? The distance to V's arms doesn't make it seem that way, unless they're always shrugging or intentionally lowering their head.

You should've seen the stretched monstrosity that V became in the earlier 1.x versions. Carrying a body cast horrifying shadows.

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by EricHVela:

When the camera's inside V's head, the head cannot be rendered or the player'll see surfaces meant to only be seen from the exterior.

I'm not a game developer, but can't you just make them invisible from the inside? I've noclipped inside things in older video games, some things were invisible if you looked at them from the inside.

Most surfaces are one-sided (meaning renders only from one side), but the eyes have surfaces that often face into the head for eye movement, the eyelids have surfaces on the edges and eyelashes that are visible inside the head, the interior of the nostrils are possibly visible to a camera positioned inside the head, and the same thing goes for the lower jaw. It would require a terrifying painted mannequin head to keep all surfaces facing outward from the camera.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by EricHVela:

You should've seen the stretched monstrosity that V became in the earlier 1.x versions. Carrying a body cast horrifying shadows.

I was there, Gandalf. 3000 years ago...

Originally posted by EricHVela:

Most surfaces are one-sided (meaning renders only from one side), but the eyes have surfaces that often face into the head for eye movement, the eyelids have surfaces on the edges and eyelashes that are visible inside the head, the interior of the nostrils are possibly visible to a camera positioned inside the head, and the same thing goes for the lower jaw. It would require a terrifying painted mannequin head to keep all surfaces facing outward from the camera.

But is it impossible to make it so one side has stuff and the other is transparent? Like how we have one-way mirrors IRL.

[EricHVela]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by EricHVela:

Most surfaces are one-sided (meaning renders only from one side), but the eyes have surfaces that often face into the head for eye movement, the eyelids have surfaces on the edges and eyelashes that are visible inside the head, the interior of the nostrils are possibly visible to a camera positioned inside the head, and the same thing goes for the lower jaw. It would require a terrifying painted mannequin head to keep all surfaces facing outward from the camera.

But is it impossible to make it so one side has stuff and the other is transparent? Like how we have one-way mirrors IRL.

That's how the majority of surfaces work already, but you'll still get surfaces facing toward the camera that are meant to be seen externally.

I don't know if this link to a JPG works, but here's a prime example[global.discourse-cdn.com] of what it looks like when the camera's inside a head. Ignoring the interior of the mask covering the face (which creates another issue), you can see the eyelids, eyeballs, nostrils, teeth, and tongue regardless.

The mask part creates its own problems. Glasses and the undersides of the brims of hats would almost certainly be visible to a camera inside the head.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by EricHVela:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

But is it impossible to make it so one side has stuff and the other is transparent? Like how we have one-way mirrors IRL.

That's how the majority of surfaces work already, but you'll still get surfaces facing toward the camera that are meant to be seen externally.

I don't know if this link to a JPG works, but here's a prime example[global.discourse-cdn.com] of what it looks like when the camera's inside a head. Ignoring the interior of the mask covering the face (which creates another issue), you can see the eyelids, eyeballs, nostrils, teeth, and tongue regardless.

The mask part creates its own problems. Glasses and the undersides of the brims of hats would almost certainly be visible to a camera inside the head.

How about making the camera "oblivious" to these textures? Similarly to how not every surface is reflective, and even those that are don't reflect literally everything.

[wesnef]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

.
Maybe it's because I'm so tall IRL (a little under 2 meters), but having the camera in the chest makes me feel so short, it's weird. Especially when I enable photo mode and see that, no, I'm supposed to be significantly taller.

Hmm. As someone 6'1, I can't say I've ever noticed this.

But, then

Props for actually SHOWING the character's body, though. Not every first-person game does that, which feels weird. Am I playing a full-bodied character or a floating camera, y'know?

I've never really been bothered by this, either, (the whole "I'm just a floating camera!" thing) so maybe it's just me. /shrug


(I honestly thought the first couple games where I saw legs when I looked down, were very strange. Because they just looked like waggling feet, not like what you see when you look down IRL. I kind of prefer the no-legs version. There's a mod for CP2077, Immersive First Person, that actually does that, though - shifts the camera forward as you look down, so you see down the whole body.)

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by wesnef:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

.
Maybe it's because I'm so tall IRL (a little under 2 meters), but having the camera in the chest makes me feel so short, it's weird. Especially when I enable photo mode and see that, no, I'm supposed to be significantly taller.

Hmm. As someone 6'1, I can't say I've ever noticed this.

I'm 6'5 in freedom units.

Originally posted by wesnef:

There's a mod for CP2077, Immersive First Person, that actually does that, though - shifts the camera forward as you look down, so you see down the whole body.)

Yeah, I'm using that right now.