Combat feels unsatisfying.

[N00B]

I wish the enemies were a bit more varied and generally interesting.
The enemies don't pose a real challenge. They are bullet sponges and do do a lot of damage, but I mean that there's no "thinking" challenge. There aren't really times where I have to think "oh, its a [enemy], I should [strategy]". The AI being, to avoid being too harsh, "there" is part of the issue, but mainly its just that enemies have gimmicks that don't alter combat as much as add a bit of extra work to what you already have to do. Netrunners are dealth with the same way you deal with everyone else, but you have to shoot a camera from time to time. HMG boys will eat up more bullets than a standard punk, but you can stagger, topple and kill them the exact same way. Melee enemies will follow you into cover and occasionally dash at you, but as long as you're don't suddenly get a stroke and forget to play the game, they're just guys with guns... without guns.

I don't really care if I can turn myself into a walking EMP, become the hulk or deflect bullets and cut MFs like Raiden if the MFs I'm fighting spend 2 years throwing a grenade with a trajectory that reaches low-orbit towards a guy standing 3 feet infront of them.

[N00B]

Originally posted by Fret 𐎣𐎡𐎠𐎵𐎡:

I'm on my first place through (late to the party) around level 40, and I still find some boss fights and superpsychos to be quite tough but gradually it's becoming easier and easier, especially thanks to cyberware.

I agree the enemies aren't the smartest or hardest to fight but the overall experience, the perks, skills, weapons, visuals, and overall experience really make up for it.

Also can't AI be improved upon with patches? Like can't they just turn everything up a notch and introduce a new harder difficulty level where all AI are just that little bit smarter, work together better, rush you at the same time in groups, etc?

I agree that perks and everything make things more enjoyable, but I wished the same variety and freedom applied to the opposition. Abilities like wrecking ball and quake would be fun to be on the receiving end of.

[Talbrys]

They balanced the game around keeping as many playstyles viable as they could, so it makes sense they don't have any enemies that "require" a certain playstyle to progress, as it would shaft anyone playing differently.

And no, Bethesda era Fallout games were laughably simple don't kid yourself. One of the most generic, unimaginative and lazy RPG developers in the industry and you want to champion their games as shining examples. Those games are popular not for how they ship but the wide variety of mods that get developed for them. Cyberpunk had a Bethesda style start but it has developed so much more personality to it after all the patches than any of the Bethesda Fallout games lmao

[Drax]

Originally posted by NOOB:

Looking at an example you should be a smidge more familiar with, Fallout

Lol dude really just used Fallout as an example of satisfying combat? Really?

There's quite a few FPS games that put Cyberpunk's combat to shame but they are very much action focused games that have no openworld, a minimal story, and definitely no real variety in character builds.

Cyberpunk's combat isn't even in the same ballpark as Bethesda's games. VATs are merely one mechanic that were borderline a necessity due to how god awful the basic shooting mechanics were in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Though 4 and 76 are not that much better. Meanwhile Cyberpunk gives you much more variety in hacking, a functioning stealth system, far more environmental ways of dealing with threats, much more impactful perks and skills that alter how you deal with fights, + cybernetics that allow you to slow down time, pick up and throw enemies, double jump and boost, etc. Not to mention the basic shooting mechanics, which is of most importance in making combat feel good, actually work well and are satisfying. Especially in comparison to the Fallout series.

Bethesda has been historically panned for its garbage combat in all of their games. And whilst New Vegas was not developed by Bethesda, its combat functioned identically to 3's due to being build on the same engine. The only semi-reasonable argument you could make here would be comparing it to pure action, FPS games. But that's not particularly sensible when combat is the entirety of their game.

[Phynrae]

Honestly, reading through all this, i am left with the destinct impression that the only thing you actually want is added difficulty.

All the games you list as positive exemplars have dumber AI, and more limited combat mechanics than this game. AI in Doom Eternal is dumb as a brick and it's a braindead shooter, Fallout AI is so much worse than CP77 i woulden't even know where to start, and the combat mechanics are extremely limited. But they are harder games if you max out the difficulty slider.

So just say it as it is, what you want is more difficulty.

[N00B]

Originally posted by Drax:

Originally posted by NOOB:

Looking at an example you should be a smidge more familiar with, Fallout

Lol dude really just used Fallout as an example of satisfying combat? Really?

There's quite a few FPS games that put Cyberpunk's combat to shame but they are very much action focused games that have no openworld, a minimal story, and definitely no real variety in character builds.

Cyberpunk's combat isn't even in the same ballpark as Bethesda's games. VATs are merely one mechanic that were borderline a necessity due to how god awful the basic shooting mechanics were in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Though 4 and 76 are not that much better. Meanwhile Cyberpunk gives you much more variety in hacking, a functioning stealth system, far more environmental ways of dealing with threats, much more impactful perks and skills that alter how you deal with fights, + cybernetics that allow you to slow down time, pick up and throw enemies, double jump and boost, etc. Not to mention the basic shooting mechanics, which is of most importance in making combat feel good, actually work well and are satisfying. Especially in comparison to the Fallout series.

Bethesda has been historically panned for its garbage combat in all of their games. And whilst New Vegas was not developed by Bethesda, its combat functioned identically to 3's due to being build on the same engine. The only semi-reasonable argument you could make here would be comparing it to pure action, FPS games. But that's not particularly sensible when combat is the entirety of their game.

I thought my mentioning of Cazadors would have made it obvious that I was specifically referring to the Obsidian Fallout games. New Vegas may have the same engine as Fallout 3, but because Obsidian understands their own systems as an RPG, the resulting game is superior. Damage Threshold alone is more intuitive and interesting as it reduces damage by a flat number instead of a percentage, forcing you to actually consider ammo efficiency depending on the enemy you fight. New Vegas is an actual RPG where your choices, including and especially regarding how you build your character, what items you use and how you approach battle matter. Cyberpunk is an RPG where items are infinite, ammo is abundant and where every weapon's effectiveness is determined solely by their tier, not by their attributes.

Both as an FPS and as an RPG, Cyberpunk combat is un-engaging and unsatisfying.

[Sassanid]

Originally posted by NOOB:

Originally posted by Drax:

Lol dude really just used Fallout as an example of satisfying combat? Really?

There's quite a few FPS games that put Cyberpunk's combat to shame but they are very much action focused games that have no openworld, a minimal story, and definitely no real variety in character builds.

Cyberpunk's combat isn't even in the same ballpark as Bethesda's games. VATs are merely one mechanic that were borderline a necessity due to how god awful the basic shooting mechanics were in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Though 4 and 76 are not that much better. Meanwhile Cyberpunk gives you much more variety in hacking, a functioning stealth system, far more environmental ways of dealing with threats, much more impactful perks and skills that alter how you deal with fights, + cybernetics that allow you to slow down time, pick up and throw enemies, double jump and boost, etc. Not to mention the basic shooting mechanics, which is of most importance in making combat feel good, actually work well and are satisfying. Especially in comparison to the Fallout series.

Bethesda has been historically panned for its garbage combat in all of their games. And whilst New Vegas was not developed by Bethesda, its combat functioned identically to 3's due to being build on the same engine. The only semi-reasonable argument you could make here would be comparing it to pure action, FPS games. But that's not particularly sensible when combat is the entirety of their game.

I thought my mentioning of Cazadors would have made it obvious that I was specifically referring to the Obsidian Fallout games. New Vegas may have the same engine as Fallout 3, but because Obsidian understands their own systems as an RPG, the resulting game is superior. Damage Threshold alone is more intuitive and interesting as it reduces damage by a flat number instead of a percentage, forcing you to actually consider ammo efficiency depending on the enemy you fight. New Vegas is an actual RPG where your choices, including and especially regarding how you build your character, what items you use and how you approach battle matter. Cyberpunk is an RPG where items are infinite, ammo is abundant and where every weapon's effectiveness is determined solely by their tier, not by their attributes.

Both as an FPS and as an RPG, Cyberpunk combat is un-engaging and unsatisfying.

Quite subjective. Playing around with all the different combat styles, hacking, or Karenzikov slow time, etc, adds a lot of spice and variety to the combat which many other games don't offer to this degree. Also the gun play is pretty damn good in CP, guns look and sound nice. Honestly I think we're being too picky here.

Sure the AI isn't the best in CP but the combat and weapons are pretty damn sick.

[valium]

Fallout 4 did have satisfying combat, from a survival perspective when playing survival mode. I would not use that as a benchmark for a game like Cyberpunk though, more like how combat in games like Rust should be.

As for Cyberpunk, it does not really matter how varying the enemies are, it is a big open world with respawning enemies, you will eventually hit a point where everything will seem same-y. So, they went with balancing around allowing all different kinds of builds instead.

[Tranquility]

Originally posted by NOOB:

I wish the enemies were a bit more varied and generally interesting.
The enemies don't pose a real challenge. They are bullet sponges and do do a lot of damage, but I mean that there's no "thinking" challenge. There aren't really times where I have to think "oh, its a [enemy], I should [strategy]". The AI being, to avoid being too harsh, "there" is part of the issue, but mainly its just that enemies have gimmicks that don't alter combat as much as add a bit of extra work to what you already have to do. Netrunners are dealth with the same way you deal with everyone else, but you have to shoot a camera from time to time. HMG boys will eat up more bullets than a standard punk, but you can stagger, topple and kill them the exact same way. Melee enemies will follow you into cover and occasionally dash at you, but as long as you're don't suddenly get a stroke and forget to play the game, they're just guys with guns... without guns.

I don't really care if I can turn myself into a walking EMP, become the hulk or deflect bullets and cut MFs like Raiden if the MFs I'm fighting spend 2 years throwing a grenade with a trajectory that reaches low-orbit towards a guy standing 3 feet infront of them.

Maybe this mod can help you with that, and if it's too hard or too easy you can use modifiers.

https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/8467

[N00B]

Originally posted by Tranquillità:

Originally posted by NOOB:

I wish the enemies were a bit more varied and generally interesting.
The enemies don't pose a real challenge. They are bullet sponges and do do a lot of damage, but I mean that there's no "thinking" challenge. There aren't really times where I have to think "oh, its a [enemy], I should [strategy]". The AI being, to avoid being too harsh, "there" is part of the issue, but mainly its just that enemies have gimmicks that don't alter combat as much as add a bit of extra work to what you already have to do. Netrunners are dealth with the same way you deal with everyone else, but you have to shoot a camera from time to time. HMG boys will eat up more bullets than a standard punk, but you can stagger, topple and kill them the exact same way. Melee enemies will follow you into cover and occasionally dash at you, but as long as you're don't suddenly get a stroke and forget to play the game, they're just guys with guns... without guns.

I don't really care if I can turn myself into a walking EMP, become the hulk or deflect bullets and cut MFs like Raiden if the MFs I'm fighting spend 2 years throwing a grenade with a trajectory that reaches low-orbit towards a guy standing 3 feet infront of them.

Maybe this mod can help you with that, and if it's too hard or too easy you can use modifiers.

https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/8467

Thanks. This is exactly what I've been looking for. Shame it has to be a mod instead of a feature, though.

[⛧True Survivor⛧]

Originally posted by NOOB:

I wish the enemies were a bit more varied and generally interesting.
The enemies don't pose a real challenge. They are bullet sponges and do do a lot of damage, but I mean that there's no "thinking" challenge. There aren't really times where I have to think "oh, its a [enemy], I should [strategy]". The AI being, to avoid being too harsh, "there" is part of the issue, but mainly its just that enemies have gimmicks that don't alter combat as much as add a bit of extra work to what you already have to do. Netrunners are dealth with the same way you deal with everyone else, but you have to shoot a camera from time to time. HMG boys will eat up more bullets than a standard punk, but you can stagger, topple and kill them the exact same way. Melee enemies will follow you into cover and occasionally dash at you, but as long as you're don't suddenly get a stroke and forget to play the game, they're just guys with guns... without guns.

It's hard to deny that the game's main selling point is it's story telling and world building. In some parts it even feels more like an interactive movie than an actual game. Personally I have a lot of fun as long as I do certain quests for the first time, but I guess it doesn't have too much replay value in the long run due to it's lack of a substantial combat system, enemy design and balancing.

[Estevan Valladares]

Always people talk about AI, that reminds me of two GDC talks:
- The one with the guy who developed Faction Champions in ToC in WoW
- The guy who developed the best known ecosystem in a game

The people talk about AI, even some mods that "make better AI", none of them make better AI. Players dont like good AI.
The guy who developed ToC fight made an AI that would have learned from thousands of player vs player fights, and play like a player would. What was the response:
- you cant know what the AI will do, it is crap
- you wont be able to watch a YouTube tutorial to know the fight, it is crap
- general *I cant be special in that fight so I dont like it* feeling

The guy who developed the game in which AI would make an ecosystem in which the players would have to understand things like seasons, and sustainability to not die next winter, they would complain that the game was unfairly simply denying them progression artificially. The problem is that they would go anywhere, destroy everything, loot everything, and then move to the next place, and do the same, you know, like humans often do.

Change on what the NPC does by giving more conditions to watch out is not "better AI", it is just "bigger AI". The NPC does not change its behavior, it just behave more often. That might seem "better AI", but it is like what happen with a "Space combat" game I play (adult game, sue me ). The "easy mode" you could find a simple geometric path to be wandering around (like in a triangle, or a square) and shooting inside or outside that triangle. No enemy would hit out because the movement repeated would herd them into a formation that would make them block each other. You just had to time correctly when to shoot inside that path or outside the path. They changed how much the enemy read of where you are and how many obstacles (asteroids, borders) it had. The result ? The exact same strategy worked because the enemies did not read any more data or behavior, it just started changing direction more often, which in turn made even worse their ability to shoot you.

And you might even not know that is the thing, because game studios, at least those not Bethesda, dont clash with players. Devs might, but studios dont. So when players say something is "unfair padding" or "impossible fight", or "money strategy", studios often dont argue that, instead they tell devs to dumb down the system.

That is what happened with that fight in WoW, long ago, which people said it was impossible. People have done that fight, but because "a lot" of people said it was impossible, they changed the fight and kinda admitted it was.

Companies which make money from game sales will never make better AI enemies. Or companions for that matter.

Some, if any, passion developers who do not live off game development might, but they also wont be that much interested in it, because then, the game itself wont be big enough to accommodate "smart AI".

[Tijger]

Originally posted by NOOB:

Originally posted by Tranquillità:

Maybe this mod can help you with that, and if it's too hard or too easy you can use modifiers.

https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/8467

Thanks. This is exactly what I've been looking for. Shame it has to be a mod instead of a feature, though.

It has to be a mod because 99% of players dont want what you want. Mods are a great way to give players who want something like that a way to incorporate it without changing the game for everyone else who doesnt share your opinion.

[Dryspace]

I haven't played C2077 yet, and this information is not happily received.

Is it perhaps possible to use the development kit they released in order to redesign enemy AI behavior?

It would require lower-level access than most mods require. I've actually never heard of a game mod that significantly changes gameplay by altering/replacing AI routines.

[Estevan Valladares]

Originally posted by Dryspace:

I haven't played C2077 yet, and this information is not happily received.

Is it perhaps possible to use the development kit they released in order to redesign enemy AI behavior?

It would require lower-level access than most mods require. I've actually never heard of a game mod that significantly changes gameplay by altering/replacing AI routines.

I have modded many games, and I can say CP77 is not one of the most mod friendly of them all. It is even worse than Fallout 4.
Conan Exiles is a game that is "arguably" worse than CP77 in terms of tech (not ingame, lol, Conan is medieval like fantasy), but in terms of the game itself.
However, Funcom gives us a complete devkit for mods that have examples for mods besides the actual Unreal Engine modified project so we can test and run the mods in a development environment without running it in the actual game, so we can simulate, pause, etc.
And they offer us detailed instructions on how to integrate systems.
https://www.conanexiles.com/mods/

It requires knowledge, of course, but you can change NPCs almost from the ground up, to do whatever you want if you know how to do it.
It is orders of magnitude ahead of what CDPR offers for modding in any of their games.

Or Bethesda, or Hello Games.

While you can in other games change a scripted version of code, that the game then chooses to run or not, and limiting its uses, the Conan Devkit allows you to completely change the game in mechanics and gameplay if you want.

Still to see a game that allows that kind of freedom for modders.

The game itself, however, could use some enhancements and fixes, but for us modders, there is no better game.

[Dryspace]

Originally posted by Estevan Valladares:

I have modded many games, and I can say CP77 is not one of the most mod friendly of them all.

I was hoping it was, because ever since the Great Consolization of 2008, we've had nothing like the freedom that we used to have when the AAA PC studios happily released software to allow users to modify the game.

What's annoying is that games can be modded without any kind of "Construction Set", "ModKit", etc., so one would think that a game that has software for specifically modifying the game (or for "creation") would allow even further modification.