David vs V, who would win?

[Chenni]

Peak David on the anime, vs "peak" V (i.e. max level, epic quick hacks, cyberware, weapon).

Do you think V has a chance against David?

On the anime, David's Sandi seems to be even faster than the one we have in game. On the other hand, emp grenade or a netrunner V could easily make short work of something like David.

[Kyrandos]

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

But the reactions that got people were just so spicy I decided to keep going with it.

No one got spicy. We all just started making fun of you.

[Markus Reese]

Originally posted by Kyrandos:

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

But the reactions that got people were just so spicy I decided to keep going with it.

No one got spicy. We all just started making fun of you.

Which is more telling of yourselves than anything else. V is stronger because in the time between Edgerunners and 2077, for some reason everything in existence becomes pathetically inept and frail... Hrm.. So will treat the game as literal is canon as presented and that Smasher becomes a weak and frail old man in the time between games.

What my perspective was is that the characters are playing effectively very different rules and are in a way, different source material. So are they comparable in the first place on any level basis? So is that something that can be looked at. IE, converting them to different media.

So the original entry into the debate was while in the raw, V is clearly superior, one must also consider that V is also not constrained to the traditional rules of the world and source material for the purposes of gameplay.

[Kyrandos]

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

Which is more telling of yourselves than anything else.

No

[Markus Reese]

Of course it is made up. It is theory crafting. What is made up is that V is powerful. There were pre-existing rules to the world and baselines to how things are and restrictions. That is all not made up. It has been in print for forty years.

V is more powerful because is not constrained by those rules for 'reasons' V who is impervious to being maimed or dismembered in a world where netrunners have only the most basic skills there is plenty of stuff made up.

Which is where the debate comes in. Why is V the only one who has these special privileges. Or if we take V as is and compare to the baseline of the others in the comparision, suddenly V isn't so special without some sort of external mitigating factor.

So do explain, what is it that makes V superhuman compared to every single other person in night city?

How many V's would beat Adam smasher if the game only had permadeath mode? Oh. That must be it. Some glitch in V's cybernetics gives them precog abilities! V is the most powerful because of precognition!

[Titan Awaken]

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

Which is where the debate comes in. Why is V the only one who has these special privileges. Or if we take V as is and compare to the baseline of the others in the comparision, suddenly V isn't so special without some sort of external mitigating factor.

So do explain, what is it that makes V superhuman compared to every single other person in night city?

How many V's would beat Adam smasher if the game only had permadeath mode? Oh. That must be it. Some glitch in V's cybernetics gives them precog abilities! V is the most powerful because of precognition!

Lmao. Didja play past the first 2 hours of the game before asking this question?

Well for starters V is the only person in the entire city to have 2 people sharing 1 body via the relic. The relic clearly mitigates if not outright nullifies the effects or at least symptoms of cyberpsychosis to the point where V can get chromed up well beyond David ever was/could have.

That alone enables V to solo David without even mentioning Smasher.

[vile]

Originally posted by Titan Awaken:

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

Which is where the debate comes in. Why is V the only one who has these special privileges. Or if we take V as is and compare to the baseline of the others in the comparision, suddenly V isn't so special without some sort of external mitigating factor.

So do explain, what is it that makes V superhuman compared to every single other person in night city?

How many V's would beat Adam smasher if the game only had permadeath mode? Oh. That must be it. Some glitch in V's cybernetics gives them precog abilities! V is the most powerful because of precognition!

Well for starters V is the only person in the entire city to have 2 people sharing 1 body via the relic. The relic clearly mitigates if not outright nullifies the effects or at least symptoms of cyberpsychosis to the point where V can get chromed up well beyond David ever was/could have.

Here's Word of God on that very subject, if you'd like an official source to back up your points here.

[Markus Reese]

Yup, the point is V is very weak. Dies to even generic basic gangoons... If not for their psychic powers that lets them see the future :-3

Originally posted by vile:

Here's Word of God on that very subject, if you'd like an official source to back up your points here.

Nope. Look back. According to the people above this is not true because you can get all your maximum strength and power needed to beat smasher without the relic. Just ask those people earlier.

I made the argument a bit before about how the relic could explain the differences and was shot down :-3

[Markus Reese]

Originally posted by Seamus:

You don't seem to have read that post terribly closely.

What is misread? You folks said earlier that all of v's advantages are there without the relic, so the relic does nothing. There is no cyberpsychosis if you fully chip in before ever heading to Arasaka tower.

You folks are the ones who said the relic does nothing. The post argues how V doesn't go psycho and that David was 1 in a million.

Course with phantom liberty, we know V isn't immune. There is a limit for how much cybernetics that can be equipped. There is a threshold that if one exceeds by going heavily into cybernetics, one can end up with bouts of psychosis.

That post was about theory that the relic helps V hold it together because by all rights should be going insane.

[vile]

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

I made the argument a bit before about how the relic could explain the differences and was shot down :-3

No you didn't. You made an argument about how the Relic could have combat programming embedded in it somehow. You didn't say anything about it acting as a buffer for cyberpsychosis. You can't just generalize things to make it seem like you're right.

The reason you're getting so much pushback here is not only are you incorrect, you're also imprecise and you keep moving goalposts. That's bad faith discussion, and we simply aren't here for it.

I already broke my rule about not engaging further with you, so that's all I'll say on the subject.

[Markus Reese]

Originally posted by vile:

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

I made the argument a bit before about how the relic could explain the differences and was shot down :-3

No you didn't. You made an argument about how the Relic could have combat programming embedded in it somehow. You didn't say anything about it acting as a buffer for cyberpsychosis. You can't just generalize things to make it seem like you're right.

The reason you're getting so much pushback here is not only are you incorrect, you're also imprecise and you keep moving goalposts. That's bad faith discussion, and we simply aren't here for it.

I already broke my rule about not engaging further with you, so that's all I'll say on the subject.

Oooh! Welcome back.

True. I didn't talk cyberpsychosis. I just talked about combat capabilities over most people. I actually never really brought psychosis much into it at all.

But somebody else brought that thread in.

But according to your own arguments, Mike Pondsmith is wrong? As you said the relic has no effect on capabilities because of everything V can do without the relic. I just used that to point out that according to your argument, Mike is wrong since one has no cybernetics limit before the Relic.

You say bad faith, but you are the ones who points out that the game does not follow the source material on which everything else was based.

V only won because is psychic. That is canon because in the game V dies repeatedly, but then finds themselves at a point in history before the events that got them killed.

It is in the game, therefore is canon.

Edit: Why would I stop? It could have been a discussion on how/why V could be more powerful than Smasher and David. But instead you want to argue, 'Cause canon is game'

meaning V having knowledge of events yet to pass is canon too.

[alex010300]

V obviously, thanks to Johnny he doesn't get cyberpsychosis in fact he can give others cyberpsychosis.

[tsunshine.chris]

Did this choom just say Mike Pondsmith was wrong about his own material?

[vile]

Originally posted by Seamus:

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

V only won because is psychic. That is canon because in the game V dies repeatedly, but then finds themselves at a point in history before the events that got them killed.

It is in the game, therefore is canon.

Cool. More bad faith nonsense.

It's pretty pointless at this juncture, IMO. I threw up my hands a while ago for this very reason.

[Markus Reese]

Originally posted by tsunshine.chris:

Did this choom just say Mike Pondsmith was wrong about his own material?

I said they said. I presented that the relic did more than just hold Silverhand's engram. They said the relic did nothing for V because V can do everything before getting it.

Mike says that wouldnt be the case in said point about cyberpsychosis. So what I theorised was in line with what Pondsmith said.

[Mr_Faorry]

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

Originally posted by tsunshine.chris:

Did this choom just say Mike Pondsmith was wrong about his own material?

I said they said. I presented that the relic did more than just hold Silverhand's engram. They said the relic did nothing for V because V can do everything before getting it.

Mike says that wouldnt be the case in said point about cyberpsychosis. So what I theorised was in line with what Pondsmith said.

You specifically said that you thought the relic was controlling V to make them more skilled like the doll chips Judy makes do.

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

Seperate addendum point. We actually have in game lore to support this theory thanks to Judy.

Judy makes use of the doll chip and braindance that lets a pair of dolls be more combat capable than a whole squad of Tigerclaw gangers. So in a sense, V is more powerful because it isnt V. It is actually V being programmed and controlled by programming/AI on the chip. Plus we learn some additional functionalities that the Relic chip has in the start of Phantom Liberty storyline.

It isnt that V's feats dont count for above. It is whether Canonically they are the same story and answering the question as to whether that which lets V accomplish their goals exists and identifying differences. Then explaining how they can occur.

IE, stuff player can do which nothing else in game can. IE, why no permanent injuries, etc.

None of this is anything to do with what that reddit comment was talking about, it doesn't line up with it because it's a whole different topic.