David vs V, who would win?

[Chenni]

Peak David on the anime, vs "peak" V (i.e. max level, epic quick hacks, cyberware, weapon).

Do you think V has a chance against David?

On the anime, David's Sandi seems to be even faster than the one we have in game. On the other hand, emp grenade or a netrunner V could easily make short work of something like David.

[Paulie]

Origineel geplaatst door Markus Reese:

...Only because V has psychic precognitive abilities and the relic removes every physical shortcoming of the human body, grand rapid regeneration to near immortality status and it programmed her with combat skills exceeding the most highly trained combat forces on the planet.

...Or was just born that way?

Yes, it is canonical max V beat Smasher.

But doesnt mean that a maxed out V could necessarily beat pre full conversion David when the rules of the story universe are factored in.

Else Dexter Deshawn is more powerful than V. And Takamura more powerful than Deshawn.

at the point of execution, Dex was actually more capable than V, and Takamura's ruthlessness caught Dex off guard. but V was a completely different beast from that point and the endgame.

[Markus Reese]

If I am level 60 and fully cybernetic equipped before finishing act 1? DeShawn can still kill V. Nothing changes aside from a few iconics. But you ca get a build capable of beating Smasher before doing Kompeki plasa. Which is why translation from game to lore narrative is important consideration.

This is where consideration of the characters become more important than directly taking the game as is. Else one could be like above. Instead if we consider the spirit of the story and use suspension of disbelief to imagine Smasher was just as capable and need to assume V was still a newbie by time of Kompeki.

Which then is the discussion of progression after. What made V so special? V gear vs David, etc to build a solid comparison.

[[S!C] ΞX Gloomwalker]

V can trounce Smasher, which says it all really. David couldn't even land 1 hit.

[Ishan451]

Origineel geplaatst door Markus Reese:

Edit: Sidenote? CDPR actually does not own the trademarks or rights to the game. Mike Pondsmith maintains the rights, rulebooks etc. and CDPR licensed it... sort of. CDPR owns 2077 IP and on. It is a sort of cooperative project between the IP holder and CDPR

Pondsmith has the same deal as the Witcher author. He sold the trademark and everything from 2077 onward. You can find CDPR owning the Trademark if you open the latest Cyberpunk Pen & Paper edition. Just check your Cyberpunk RED Impressum. Since you mentioned the 2020 ruleset i am sure you also have the current rules as well and don't just deceptively use outdated rules.

Origineel geplaatst door Markus Reese:

Origineel geplaatst door tsunshine.chris:

Did this choom just say Mike Pondsmith was wrong about his own material?

I said they said. I presented that the relic did more than just hold Silverhand's engram. They said the relic did nothing for V because V can do everything before getting it.

They, which includes me, said no such thing. I even pointed to the nanites and others simply disagreed with your combat programming nonsense by saying V has all their abilities without getting the Relic. While Watson likely doesn't contain enough exp to get to 50. But leaving the issue of xp aside, getting the Relic isn't a prerequisite for any of Vs abilities (until the inclusion of the DLC).

Similarly it requires Song Mi to hack the Relic to give it combat enhancing abilities.

Origineel geplaatst door EJR:

But if "canon" V goes netrunning then I agree with Markus Reese, David would lose.

The irony of him moving goalposts and misrepresenting his an others statements to end us up where he is perceived to be arguing for a V victory, when actually all of this came about by Reese trying to discredit V as everyone else pointed to Adam Smasher as commonality between the two and David looses and V wins. All attempts at trying to discredit V by suggesting its a video game are a waste of time. The game only properly ends if V defeats Smasher. Doesn't matter if people can reload on a failure to accomplish the story. V is destined to defeat Smasher.

Origineel geplaatst door Markus Reese:

In actuality, if we do not consider mitigating factors? DeShawn is stronger than V. And Takemura is stronger than DeShawn making Takemura the top dog.

So? The thread doesn't seek to explore who is top dog. It asks V vs David and we have multiple comparable situations these two found themselves in, with the difference being David looses to Smasher and V does not.

[KDA Seraphine]

To V, David is nothing but another Cyberpsychosis gig.

[Markus Reese]

*V beats a significantly weaker Adam Smasher :-3

No goalposts were moved. My statement still stands. Also CP Red doesnt explain either the flaws with V's stylized representation.

The discussion was about David vs V. I presented that if they both fit within the same medium and ruleset, then V doesnt beat smasher unless there is some unmentioned factor.

Like V's precognitive ability represented by reloading on flatline over and over again.

Side note, you can max level in act 1 simply from grinding random spawn npcs. Good for cash and street cred especially. Irony being that in the pre 2.0? It was doable to beat smasher well below max lvl. thanks to him getting substantially weaker.

Also Smasher and David's sandevistan are far more time dialation effect then what we can get in game. Weird how Smasher never uses the sandy to same extent in the game.

So if we assume game is not truly representative of events, but is representative of lore, then what is the mitigating difference?

[Kelly]

V solos everyone in the game lol

[Kyrandos]

Origineel geplaatst door Markus Reese:

*V beats a significantly weaker Adam Smasher :-3

No goalposts were moved. My statement still stands. Also CP Red doesnt explain either the flaws with V's stylized representation.

The discussion was about David vs V. I presented that if they both fit within the same medium and ruleset, then V doesnt beat smasher unless there is some unmentioned factor.

Like V's precognitive ability represented by reloading on flatline over and over again.

Side note, you can max level in act 1 simply from grinding random spawn npcs. Good for cash and street cred especially. Irony being that in the pre 2.0? It was doable to beat smasher well below max lvl. thanks to him getting substantially weaker.

Also Smasher and David's sandevistan are far more time dialation effect then what we can get in game. Weird how Smasher never uses the sandy to same extent in the game.

So if we assume game is not truly representative of events, but is representative of lore, then what is the mitigating difference?

No matter what you say, Markus either said or didn't say what you read or quoted and he's really thought deeply about which cyberpunk character is more powerful - and that's the opposite of whoever you're arguing at any given moment. No goalposts moved, just your conception of his current argument.

[Mr_Faorry]

Origineel geplaatst door Markus Reese:

The discussion was about David vs V. I presented that if they both fit within the same medium and ruleset, then V doesnt beat smasher unless there is some unmentioned factor.

Which is a dishonest argument because they aren't within the same medium/ ruleset, a videogame and an anime are very different mediums that play by very different rules.
To try and compare the two is near impossible unless you have a common factor. Enter Smasher who while appearing different in each due to the difference in medium is canonically the same in both allowing us to compare the two.
Smasher isn't weaker when fighting V then he was when fighting David, he was just as strong canonically, he just appears 'weaker' because of the difference in the medium. Or rather Edgerunners portrays him (and basically everything else) as stronger than he actually is because anime insists making everything over the top powerful.

Origineel geplaatst door Markus Reese:

Like V's precognitive ability represented by reloading on flatline over and over again.

V has no 'precognitive ability', the save/reload system isn't a canon in universe things like it is in Shadow of Mordor, it's purely a videogame being a videogame and you're just being obtuse at this point by continuing to insist otherwise.

If you can find CDPR saying otherwise on any of this then by all means link it but otherwise just stop with this nonsense, everyone has already told you you're wrong in all number of ways.

[fettman53]

I had some time to sit and think on this, and honestly the whole thing is really complicated the way it's being looked at, because as stated before, both mediums are very different from one another. Therefore, using these mediums to decide what would happen will just cause frustration because no matter what, the pieces just won't match up no matter how hard you try:

The anime, as most anime are, is very flamboyant and over-the-top. If we're looking at the Adam vs. David fight, compared to what probably actually happened in canon lore, the anime most likely exaggerated it.

The game, as most games are, is limited in what it can portray. Especially given it is an FPS game. And, let's be honest: it was rushed and many things were cut from the final product. The Adam vs. V fight portrayed there, compared to what probably actually happened in canon lore, was seriously dumbed down.

I think this is where people have decided to look at the objective facts instead: in lore, David loses to Adam, and in lore, V defeats Adam. Those are the facts, no matter how you try to look at it, and so that's what they base their answers on because of the aforementioned issues with the two mediums. Looking at what happened in canon lore, disregarding how the mediums portrayed the fights. But I can completely understand how that is extremely disappointing in regards to the discussion.

I offer my two-cents on the matter, then:

If we take the same thought process of ignoring the mediums and look at the facts, just as one possible situation, say we're seeing David at his peak before he begins losing it, versus V at endgame with the best gear available to them. My V uses the Apogee Sandevistan, which is the same exact Sandi that David uses, to my understanding. Again, ignoring the differences between the mediums here, the facts are thus: my V has the same exact Sandi as David, full stop. This effectively nullifies David's Sandi, and the both of them are now moving at the same rate of speed. This brings David down to the level of enemies V has already dealt with tenfold, as he effectively can't be faster than V no matter what. My V also has Kereznikov, as well as the boost system and Defenzikov, among other things, which most likely gives them even more of a speed advantage over David. Even if David has these things as well (no idea his exact cyberware setup in full), one thing of note with a Sandi is that, in lore, while YOU move much faster than everyone else, your firearms, and the rounds that they fire, do not. Generally, it's smart to get in close with a Sandi and use melee, a blade, a bat...something to that effect, as such things are only limited by how fast YOU are. This is something I never recalled David taking advantage of. It's something ANY V can and most likely WOULD take advantage of in this fight. V is generally smaller and, therefore, probably faster and harder to hit than David in this bulked up form he has at this point. And this isn't even taking into account Mike Pondsmith's confirmation that the Relic in V's head makes them immune to cyberpsychosis, which means they'd be able to stay in the Sandi state far longer than David and not blow their brain out (again, ignoring the limitations set by the medium and just going off basic facts in the lore).

This is just one take, using my V as the one taking on David. Another big difference between David and V is that V is a 'Solo,' which is actually a big deal in the lore of the Cyberpunk world, while David did rely on his team like more normal mercs of the world. V quite literally works better alone, so being left alone against David isn't as big of a handicap to them as David being left alone with V.

And if we're talking David in the suit? Even if he wasn't losing his mind and was in full control, they still have the same Sandevistan, but it would be quite a battle, no doubt. A proper boss battle, to be sure.

[Friends with Benedicts]

Well, the fact of the matter is that the world of cyberpunk is very akin to real world. A shot to the head would kill almost anyone.

Its not like dragon ball were you get blasted in the face with an energy beam/ball and you get a little scratch on your cheek that bleeds for 10 seconds.

Cyberpunk is very tied to the idea of being in real world, and even tho someone might have bulletproof chrome, the truth of the matter is that all are human and have soft spots and other ♥♥♥♥ that could result in insta deaths.

De shawn died from a bullet to the head, plain and simple, even tho he was a good combatant. Takemura is also a good combatant, but preferred the shot in the back approach. Flesh is as weak as it gets.

The game's new "level scaling" system helped with this feeling honestly. When I have a sniper, almost every enemy dies instantly with a headshot, unless its an elite, which in turn takes 2-4 shots depending on the situation.

So, as much is in real life, there is no guarantee which would win. In a real fight with 2 somewhat matched opponents, a single punch to the face can bring you down, it all depends on how and where it lands. It is very situational.

[EJR]

Origineel geplaatst door Nope:

What you essentially do is complain on the gameplay part, not the writing which would depicted the entire thing very differently during every fight
So again, gameplay depictions aren’t always story depictions

V won against Adam is canon despite it boring gameplay fight

My point is that even when canon it is just too difficult to believe

[Ishan451]

Origineel geplaatst door Markus Reese:

Like V's precognitive ability represented by reloading on flatline over and over again.

Reloading is no precognitive ability for V. It is one for the player who has to trace the story of V, but not for V themselves. The player is not V. V is not the player.

Reloading is the equivalent of a Grandpa telling a story and wanting to be done with it, so he says "and smasher killed V" and the 2 children, listening to their bed time story called End and Credits scream: "No, that is not how that happened, do it again!" because they know how the story is supposed to end.

The Player has very little influence over what V says or does. The player has the task of tracing the Story of V and the Story of V says: He beat Adam Smasher. You might get to decide if you color with a red pencil or a green one, but whenever you go outside the lines some force comes in and goes "no, that is not how you draw that! You will draw what i want you to draw!"

[Nope]

Origineel geplaatst door EJR:

Origineel geplaatst door Nope:

What you essentially do is complain on the gameplay part, not the writing which would depicted the entire thing very differently during every fight
So again, gameplay depictions aren’t always story depictions

V won against Adam is canon despite it boring gameplay fight

My point is that even when canon it is just too difficult to believe

I believe you have playing plenty of games and across many genre already, more than often you see a gameplay fight vs a story cutscenes fight is night and day in comparison. That's just how it is

[Markus Reese]

Oooh! This is the type of discussion I love!

My comment on V being a precog was a intentional strawman argument to point out how gameplay is not a literal representation of the lore of events. Many parts of the game are this. Relic doesnt kill you on a timer in game, but is a narrative tool driven by triggers

I use the precog citation to more get into how much of V's strength comes from meta knowledge, not just the build. Even the channels that highlight OP builds like Sam Bram talk about how easily V can still be killed.

https://youtu.be/R_BWwiRo_Ds?si=f1oNKJ96HfsZ8Fh7

Even taking into account gameplay not being literal, we still need to consider how V gets the skill and awareness to survive all these trials. By the rules of the game universe, it is impossible to occur. Permanent injury, psychosis, etc.

But, like yourselves and Pondsmith pointed out, perhaps is the relic that breaks this wall. Which means prior to act 2, the V we play isnt representative of lore V. Fight with Maelstrom/Militech? Is a classic shootout even if high end sandy and borged out from grinding.

This then means the relic overall can do more than just copy an engram potentially. Designer engrams. Would Saburo want to be just brought back or would he think could do a form of neural eugenics?

So on paper, V as is shouldnt be able to ever compete with David or Smasher unless biologically V is even more unique. Though there is nothing to support that. Ergo, the wild card is Relic which could viably explain how V could be so capable and damage resistance.

It can repair complex neural structure. Perhaps it can repair more?