Pistols are a Melee Weapon

[Deklend]

I know, it's controversial to say it but that's how they're designed now after 2.0. It took a bit for the realization to dawn on me and where it hit me wasn't really even thinking about pistols at all, but operating systems and their changes in 2.0.

Prior to 2.0 Sandevistan was very clearly the melee operating system while Berserk was geared more toward guns, specifically automatic guns, and surviving a "guns blazing tank" set up. It just wasn't settling right with me that in 2.0 they made Berserk melee only, especially since Sandevistan, even with it's shift to guns, is still a much better choice for melee as it allows you to "dance in between the rain drops". And yes, I do realize there is a niche build for Berserk and Hammer/Blunt weapons, it's still niche.

So this got me thinking about how people always bring up how good pistols are now when the discussion about how little damage other guns do, then the changes to both the Sandy and the Kerenzikov being key to how well pistols and to some extent shotguns, but are mid for sniper rifles and practically useless for automatics due to bullets still traveling slow during the effects. Finally, many of the new pistol iconics, as well as a few of the old ones, now have special effects on pistol whipping your opponents...it clicked in my brain. Pistols are a melee weapon now.

They want you running into the middle of all your enemies, utilizing Sandevistans and Kerenzikovs to "dance between the rain drops" to shoot them at point blank range, pistol whipping them to apply damage effects and to bypass reload animations. You aren't supposed to be using pistols from cover or, y'know, like an actual gun. They don't want you to be Roland Deschain, they want you to be John Wick.

[$CRWD]

I was initially confused by this thread and expected your post to demonstrate how, if at all, pistols scaled with the melee damage stat.

But I see what you're saying. Certain pistols offer that playstyle, sure. Still tech pistols, smart and power pistols all lean in favor of cover unless you're Body + Cool + Reflex with mitigationware. It would make for a fun run-and-gun pistol build, not unlike Johnny Silverhand's playstyle.


Body + Tech + Reflex also seems quite popular on these forums; many have recommended it, including myself, as incredibly strong on Very Hard from early to end game all while requiring minimal setup.

[Deklend]

Originally posted by Pietro:

I was initially confused by this thread and expected your post to demonstrate how, if at all, pistols scaled with the melee damage stat.

But I see what you're saying. Certain pistols offer that playstyle, sure. Still tech pistols, smart and power pistols all lean in favor of cover unless you're Body + Cool + Reflex with mitigationware. It would make for a fun run-and-gun pistol build, not unlike Johnny Silverhand's playstyle.


Body + Tech + Reflex also seems quite popular on these forums; many have recommended it, including myself, as incredibly strong on Very Hard from early to end game all while requiring minimal setup.

My current character I've retooled to be Tech, Cool, and Body honestly because of Tech Weapons favoring pistols, precision rifles, and shotguns which is performing better than Tech, Reflexes, and Body I was initially trying at the outset of 2.0 due to the character being a 1.6 character I was modeling after a commando/NUSA veteran.

Honestly though I think the biggest issue with the new systems aren't really the perks or the weapons(though Automatic Rifles and Submachine Guns definitely need a buff to bring them in line with other weapons)...It's specifically the Berserk Operating system. Cyberdecks got expanded to smart weapons of every gun type on top of the quick hacks so you have variation. Sandevistans got expanded to guns a bit, specifically pistols but still performs well with shotguns and you're still a melee god with one equipped as well. Berserk though had the niche it filled pre-2.0 removed, and severely narrowed it's use down to one very specific hammer build that is still very doable with a Sandy.

[$CRWD]

Originally posted by Deklend:

My current character I've retooled to be Tech, Cool, and Body honestly because of Tech Weapons favoring pistols, precision rifles, and shotguns which is performing better than Tech, Reflexes, and Body I was initially trying at the outset of 2.0 due to the character being a 1.6 character I was modeling after a commando/NUSA veteran.

I'd be curious to hear at what point it begins to perform better and on what difficulty.

I say this because Body > Reflexes > Tech allows you to one-shot most scaled enemies with quake's AoE sub-20, and the sprint stun essentially allows you to stunlock. Two incredible tools early game, and arguably the best out of all options since they come with health related bonuses to keep you standing.

Second to that would be a Reflexes > Body > Tech build with a katana and Sande.

Originally posted by Deklend:

Honestly though I think the biggest issue with the new systems aren't really the perks or the weapons(though Automatic Rifles and Submachine Guns definitely need a buff to bring them in line with other weapons)...It's specifically the Berserk Operating system. Cyberdecks got expanded to smart weapons of every gun type on top of the quick hacks so you have variation. Sandevistans got expanded to guns a bit, specifically pistols but still performs well with shotguns and you're still a melee god with one equipped as well. Berserk though had the niche it filled pre-2.0 removed, and severely narrowed it's use down to one very specific hammer build that is still very doable with a Sandy.

What was Berserk for in 1.63? I only stuck around during release week. I remember there being some sort of emphasis on crash landing. Didn't it function like Quake + legs with charged leaps?

I have several gripes of my own. The biggest one being just how awful throwing knives are early game. It does the damage of a secondary weapon, but has an incredibly slow ready speed, and cyberware reliance that doesn't even make it viable until end game.

[Deklend]

I play on Very Hard, character is 16 currently though was 14 when patch hit and I was messing around with builds. My testing grounds was the Ghost Town mission, specifically if you choose to help Panam get revenge instead of talk her out of it.

https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/build-planner?a=533f9&b=&r=&i=&t=000000000211001000000310012&c=000000002&e=

That's the build that got me through it whereas everything else I tried I'd just get smoked almost immediately after exiting Panam's Thornton.

Edit: For Berserk, before 2.0 it was a nice quick boost to damage and survivability for "oh ♥♥♥♥" situations while playing a run and gun in your face kind of build.

[Deklend]

Description for the Militech Berserk Mk.5 in patch 1.6:

"Berserk significantly boosts your strength and resilience. It reduces weapon recoil by 15%, weapon sway by 15%, increases melee damage by 15%, and increases armor and resistances by 10%.
Duration: 60 sec.
Cooldown: 60 sec.
While Berserk is active, jumping from a high height initiates a Superhero Landing, causing you to fall at high speed and land with enough force to create a shockwave that damages nearby enemies.
Defeating enemies restores 5% max Health when Berserk is active. Gain 40% more health when Berserk is active. Increases max Stamina by 40% when Berserk is active."

So while it still had that melee component, it was definitely what you wanted for a mid range, loud and proud guns blazing build.

[Rhapsody]

The game's compact aspects are made to be combined, since 1.0, nothing new there. It's just a bit better and more apparent in 2.0.

[$CRWD]

Originally posted by Deklend:

I play on Very Hard, character is 16 currently though was 14 when patch hit and I was messing around with builds. My testing grounds was the Ghost Town mission, specifically if you choose to help Panam get revenge instead of talk her out of it.

https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/build-planner?a=533f9&b=&r=&i=&t=000000000211001000000310012&c=000000002&e=

That's the build that got me through it whereas everything else I tried I'd just get smoked almost immediately after exiting Panam's Thornton.

Edit: For Berserk, before 2.0 it was a nice quick boost to damage and survivability for "oh ♥♥♥♥" situations while playing a run and gun in your face kind of build.

I'd personally suggest starting a new toon once you finish with your current playthrough. 2.0 changed a lot about your 1-20 experience, and even build viability early game.

As you experienced, certain builds quite literally do not pass the stat check required for certain content, and this is especially true for bosses.

This discussion has actually inspired me to test out a berserk knife build, in fact. Will see how that turns out.

[Deklend]

Originally posted by Pietro:

Originally posted by Deklend:

I play on Very Hard, character is 16 currently though was 14 when patch hit and I was messing around with builds. My testing grounds was the Ghost Town mission, specifically if you choose to help Panam get revenge instead of talk her out of it.

https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/build-planner?a=533f9&b=&r=&i=&t=000000000211001000000310012&c=000000002&e=

That's the build that got me through it whereas everything else I tried I'd just get smoked almost immediately after exiting Panam's Thornton.

Edit: For Berserk, before 2.0 it was a nice quick boost to damage and survivability for "oh ♥♥♥♥" situations while playing a run and gun in your face kind of build.

I'd personally suggest starting a new toon once you finish with your current playthrough. 2.0 changed a lot about your 1-20 experience, and even build viability early game.

As you experienced, certain builds quite literally do not pass the stat check required for certain content, and this is especially true for bosses.

This discussion has actually inspired me to test out a berserk knife build, in fact. Will see how that turns out.

Definitely do plan too and I look forward to seeing your build. Had an idea for something similar modeled after Bill the Butcher from Gangs of New York since we got that new hatchet iconic throwing weapon and also wanted to play with the chainswords a bit.

Also have some ideas for a cyberdeck smart weapons character as well.

[$CRWD]

Originally posted by Deklend:

Also have some ideas for a cyberdeck smart weapons character as well.

I can say that it works incredibly well - for the DLC at least.
That's where I left off with my Lv. 50 Nomad for 2.0. Entered Dogtown with INT + Yinglong the smart SMG, and the explosive magazine cyberware upgrade. It quite literally carried me throughout all the content. Slaughtered everything; nothing stood a chance.

I even crafted two to take advantage of the instant reload perk in certain situations. Shame it doesn't come with a mod slot for hackatomy. Perhaps hackatomy does more damage with the right set-up on a non-iconic smart SMG.

That Butcher concept sounds like good fun. A chain sword compliments Berserk and is your close range option when you need to confront bosses.

[5ean5ean]

If people actually knew what they were doing there was only 2 operating systems worth using for guns pre update 2.0

1. Sandavistan to lessen the reload animation. Great for guns like Commrades Hammer or Ashura.

2. By far the best operating system was Netwarch Netdriver in combination with the legendary Short circuit. Using it with 100% crit chance via Merciless Capstone from the Cool Tree or fast firing guns like Problem Solver instantly deleted everything. It was the most powerful in the history of the game.

Berserk was never a good option for guns and was noob trap. Its still a in last place as an option for anything in 2.0. People only used Beserk for the Beastmode mod which gave you 100% more melee damage.

So I think the OP is misinformed on how the game was truely played at the highest Min Maxed level

[Deklend]

Originally posted by 5ean5ean:

If people actually knew what they were doing there was only 2 operating systems worth using for guns pre update 2.0

1. Sandavistan to lessen the reload animation. Great for guns like Commrades Hammer or Ashura.

2. By far the best operating system was Netwarch Netdriver in combination with the legendary Short circuit. Using it with 100% crit chance via Merciless Capstone from the Cool Tree or fast firing guns like Problem Solver instantly deleted everything. It was the most powerful in the history of the game.

Berserk was never a good option for guns and was noob trap. Its still a in last place as an option for anything in 2.0. People only used Beserk for the Beastmode mod which gave you 100% more melee damage.

So I think the OP is misinformed on how the game was truely played at the highest Min Maxed level

You are correct from a minmax perspective, but I was talking build diversity which is sort of the opposite of minmaxing in gameplay. There was a clear delineation in what the original design team was trying to accomplish with Berserk before 2.0 as an option between the heavy melee focus of Sandevistans and Kerenzikovs, and the avoiding direct combat and conflict focus of Cyberdecks. This is very much telegraphed within the game when talking to Coach Fred about reflex timing, while the recoil and weapon sway benefits of the Berserk OS, as well as the damage reduction and healing effects, was very much intended to make LMG's, Automatic Rifles, and SMG's a more viable choice since these aren't weapons you're sniping off targets from long range with.

The subject of build diversity has narrowed by quite a bit in 2.0 and there is an obvious difference in design philosophy between Pawel Sasko, the original game director for Cyberpunk 2077, and Gabe Amatangelo who was the director for Phantom Liberty.

[Eso]

Originally posted by Pietro:

Originally posted by Deklend:

I play on Very Hard, character is 16 currently though was 14 when patch hit and I was messing around with builds. My testing grounds was the Ghost Town mission, specifically if you choose to help Panam get revenge instead of talk her out of it.

https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/build-planner?a=533f9&b=&r=&i=&t=000000000211001000000310012&c=000000002&e=

That's the build that got me through it whereas everything else I tried I'd just get smoked almost immediately after exiting Panam's Thornton.

Edit: For Berserk, before 2.0 it was a nice quick boost to damage and survivability for "oh ♥♥♥♥" situations while playing a run and gun in your face kind of build.

I'd personally suggest starting a new toon once you finish with your current playthrough. 2.0 changed a lot about your 1-20 experience, and even build viability early game.

As you experienced, certain builds quite literally do not pass the stat check required for certain content, and this is especially true for bosses.

This discussion has actually inspired me to test out a berserk knife build, in fact. Will see how that turns out.

Would love to know how that build has worked out for you. Currently running a throwing knife only build on my third playthrough and considering implementing a berserk for close combat.