What's up with Oda since 2.0 ?

[Glenmoryl]

I've always played this game on very hard. I've started a new very hard playthrough last week after the release of 2.0 update. I have now reached the Oda boss fight. And god what have they done ?? I'm level 35, level 20 intel tree, level 20 technical tree. I've maxed out the technical weapon tree, cyberware and quick hacks tree as well. I have a lot of armor (for my level) around 800.
For the most part the fight is alright it was like it used to be jumping around on the platforms doing dmg with my hacks and weapons bur everytime Oda uses his long range smart weapons I get instantly killed, like in less than a second. As soon as i hear the first shot being fired I'm dead. Even when I'm on the lower level with more cover the bullets goes through the walls. Is this a bug or a new balancing issue since 2.0 ?
I still managed to save before the mission so I can come back later with a higher level. But still, I already have level 5+ weapons and Cyberware. I feel like even if I come back after level 50 I'll get my ass handed to me again. Or maybe my build just sucks...

[GaijinRuskiHacker]

Oda was hard - mainly because l ran out of ammo all the time

[$CRWD]

Originally posted by Rosh+:

I started a new playthrough on Very Hard recently. I started as a throwing weapon stealth, wanted to go into a hacker ninja sort of build this time, so I ditched Sandevistan. I did this expecting the 2.0 changes to have reworked stealth and netrunning into something less boring. Stealth is still one of the most boring and easiest ways to play the game.

Your appraisal of netrunning is at odds with the majority of the players here then. We have all already established that netrunning's 2.0 overhaul has seen it nerfed in early and mid game - not that I am complaining. Arguments about end game viability, at least on Very Hard, aren't compelling as at that stage, everything works. If netrunning is anything at all in 2.0-2.01, it is an inconvenience.

Originally posted by Rosh+:

I don't remember there being throwing weapons at launch and they're some of the most mechanically broken things in the game.

Knives were around during release, yep. And in fact they worked with blade perks, as they were considered blade weapons. So they've been nerfed since then.

Originally posted by Rosh+:

If you kill one guard out of a duo with a silenced pistol, the other one is immediately alerted to your presence and combat begins; If you kill one guard out of a duo with a throwing weapon, he takes a page out of Skyrim and questions himself about your location(which is idle on a rooftop 30m away).

See, this is one of the differences I appreciate, aside from it being a more skillful weapon. Headshots are specifically required for that to be possible; make a mistake and hit a shoulder, or the neck? Detected. But this shouldn't matter with the delayed detection perk or sonic shock. What you describe as "mechanically broken" is what netrunning accomplishes for as cheap as 2-3 RAM.

Originally posted by Rosh+:

I ended up switching to a more combat-centric build because there is no challenge and no fun in simply standing idle on a rooftop throwing knives at people while all the enemies in an area line up single file to investigate a vending machine that I've hacked for the 40th time.

That's not exactly specific to knives, as that can be accomplished with silenced weapons in general: pistols, snipers, assault rifles, precision rifles. That's also a type of playstyle. Personally, I shy away from killing (leaving a trace) unless absolutely necessary.

Originally posted by Rosh+:

The reason I say that you're punished for not picking body+reflex+technical is because you lose out on movement abilities, cyberware and the centre tree of body, not because any of the trees are particularly that powerful in combat.

Yep. CC immunity, increased cyberware cap, health regen and Adrenaline are important on Very Hard, unless one enjoys reloading a save every second they're 2-tapped.

[Wonzling]

As a squishy netrunner without great combat focus I found it very useful to interrupt his offensive moves with hacks (blindness, stop movement, cyberware shutdown etc.). Fight is more challenging than before because Oda can hide and heal now but if you keep the pressure up, it's doable. Did it on hard, fwiw.

[RPGknight]

I'm interested to see this is the case for other people. I completed the main game up to the final missions where you get locked into an ending because I heard the DLC was coming and wanted to wait. Also didn't want to restart because it's a whole play through wasted.

On the highest difficulty damage has always been a bit of a concern but when I hit max it was exceedingly manageable provided you didn't stand still or take on to much fire at once.

Since the update though armour feels like it does nothing. My health gets shredded in a few seconds by three basic thugs. That and my guns seem to be doing piss poor damage. My MA70 and Carnage are bordering on unusable without the Sandevistan. Only my Kolac rifle is really putting in any work.

I get its probably a bug and I understand the changes. Feels kind of ♥♥♥♥♥♥ having invested all those upgrade resources in stuff like Johnny's jacket for it now just be purely visual though...

[Rosh+]

Originally posted by Pietro:

Your appraisal of netrunning is at odds with the majority of the players here then. We have all already established that netrunning's 2.0 overhaul has seen it nerfed in early and mid game - not that I am complaining. Arguments about end game viability, at least on Very Hard, aren't compelling as at that stage, everything works. If netrunning is anything at all in 2.0-2.01, it is an inconvenience.

I agree that netrunning isn't very good in the early game. Mid-game is a different story, as by then you should have access to most of your kit. You can clear Watson and Westbrook in terms of Gigs and NCPD alerts and be Level 30 or so with 50 Street Cred.

Originally posted by Pietro:

Knives were around during release, yep. And in fact they worked with blade perks, as they were considered blade weapons. So they've been nerfed since then.

Yes, they were. I'm not sure what you mean by 'nerfed' as throwing weapons as of now are very strong. IIRC, 1.0 throwing knives required a single perk, and then you got to throw knives that vanished as soon as they hit enemies. They seem to have been markedly improved since release.

Originally posted by Pietro:

See, this is one of the differences I appreciate, aside from it being a more skillful weapon. Headshots are specifically required for that to be possible; make a mistake and hit a shoulder, or the neck? Detected. But this shouldn't matter with the delayed detection perk or sonic shock. What you describe as "mechanically broken" is what netrunning accomplishes for as cheap as 2-3 RAM.

The only skill knives require is the ability to point and click at the head with skill investment. I've stood around corners or on roof tops luring entire populations of guards to vending machines, throwing knives at the same spot while barely moving my mouse with great success. It confuses me that you decry Netrunning as an inconvenience, and then point out it is capable of exactly the same thing. It has all the advantages as any other mode of stealth in this game, being that in general stealth is easy.

Originally posted by Pietro:

That's not exactly specific to knives, as that can be accomplished with silenced weapons in general: pistols, snipers, assault rifles, precision rifles. That's also a type of playstyle.

Enemies aggro and instantly detect you at close-medium range if you kill somebody relatively approximate with suppressed weapons. The same is not true of knives, IME. No definitive testing of course, so it's not really worth noting.

Originally posted by Pietro:

Yep. CC immunity, increased cyberware cap, health regen and Adrenaline are important on Very Hard, unless one enjoys reloading a save every second they're 2-tapped.

It goes without saying that a build made for combat will be better at combat than a build made for stealth. The stealth system in this game is trivially easy, if you take a stealth build into combat without anything to break aggro and exit combat, you deserve to reload. Nothing stops you from tossing 1-2 flash grenades and jumping onto a rooftop a lot of the time.

After having used it, this game is nightmarish without Dash.

[Lahoo Eckbert]

I beat the dude with a katana. Initially he was really hard but once he went stealth camo and started running around I destroyed him. I think his AI was bugged and he became overly passive for a reason.

[Tokenn]

I just spent a solid hour fighting Oda on Hard level and he kicked my butt about a dozen times before I hit on the right weapon combo to take him down. Fortunately (?) after a while he got tired and just shot at me and stood still long enough for me to hit him with enough Bolts from my Achilles and then my Senkoh machine pistol to take him out. Stupid thing is that I nearly bagged him with my Chesapeake Smart SMG in the first go-round, but switched to my Buzzsaw and Carnage, which both barely scratched him and I was too caught up to realize it.

I streamed this on Twitch (just search for 'r1pbuck') if you want to watch...skip ahead to the 2H23 - 2H33.30 mark for the climax to the fight. I'll be posting it to YouTube today or tomorrow as well...

[Rosh+]

Originally posted by Tokenn:

I just spent a solid hour fighting Oda on Hard level and he kicked my butt about a dozen times before I hit on the right weapon combo to take him down. Fortunately (?) after a while he got tired and just shot at me and stood still long enough for me to hit him with enough Bolts from my Achilles and then my Senkoh machine pistol to take him out. Stupid thing is that I nearly bagged him with my Chesapeake Smart SMG in the first go-round, but switched to my Buzzsaw and Carnage, which both barely scratched him and I was too caught up to realize it.

I streamed this on Twitch (just search for 'r1pbuck') if you want to watch...skip ahead to the 2H23 - 2H33.30 mark for the climax to the fight. I'll be posting it to YouTube today or tomorrow as well...

this run i just blasted him with a shotgun until he died on very hard

[$CRWD]

Originally posted by Rosh+:

I agree that netrunning isn't very good in the early game. Mid-game is a different story, as by then you should have access to most of your kit. You can clear Watson and Westbrook in terms of Gigs and NCPD alerts and be Level 30 or so with 50 Street Cred.

Agreed. Mid game is where the difficulty curve falls flat. However you're still going to have comparatively less issues with /every/ other build that doesn't rely on netrunning for damage.

Originally posted by Rosh+:

Yes, they were. You couldn't throw them, or any other melee weapon, though. I'm not sure what you mean by 'nerfed' as throwing weapons as of now are very strong.

No, you could throw them. It just required the Dagger Dealer perk under Cool's Ninjutsu subset. And if you threw your knife and did not run up to collect it, you'd lose it.

Originally posted by Rosh+:

The only skill knives require is the ability to point and click at the head with skill investment. I've stood around corners or on roof tops luring entire populations of guards to vending machines, throwing knives at the same spot while barely moving my mouse with great success. It confuses me that you decry Netrunning as an inconvenience, and then point out it is capable of exactly the same thing. It has all the advantages as any other mode of stealth in this game, being that in general stealth is easy.

Netrunning is an inconvenience in terms of its combat capabilities from early to end game* on Very Hard*, because other builds do what netrunning does (ranged attacks) better. For covert & control (crowd control) it's still #1. Really wish CDPR gave monowire more umph at the expense of its damage nerf.

Originally posted by Rosh+:

Enemies aggro and instantly detect you at close-medium range if you kill somebody relatively approximate with suppressed weapons. The same is not true of knives, IME. No definitive testing of course, so it's not really worth noting.

Not on my end. All actions generate noise, but a knife, or a silenced pistol like Her Magesty don't immediately alert unless the body is right in view - even if it flops to the floor like a dead fish. I also am still on 2.0.

Originally posted by Rosh+:

It goes without saying that a build made for combat will be better at combat than a build made for stealth. The stealth system in this game is trivially easy, if you take a stealth build into combat without anything to break aggro and exit combat, you deserve to reload. Nothing stops you from tossing 1-2 flash grenades and jumping onto a rooftop a lot of the time.

And you should not have to break stealth to handle encounters or be forced out of stealth. No idea why they didn't take pointers from Deus Ex; plenty ways to handle encounters: persuasion, environment and stealth. No such options exist for a few bossess: Placide, Matilda, Oda. You're just forced into combat as a stealth player.

[Cal]

he one shots me with those fkin smart bullets that he fires like he's the mandalorian

[Yawb]

As some have hinted to in here, there is currently a bug that makes his smart weapon bullets do insane 1 shot damage. Go back a save before unplugging the jacked in net-runner and try again, this remedied the problem for me. It may of been an autosave the game made that was bugged for me, i forgot.

If still struggling then yeah, go back a few saves and upgrade your gear i guess.

[Koreanpowerman]

Originally posted by Rosh+:

Originally posted by Pietro:

Absolutely.

Although I'd have to disagree with your second point. Stealth is significantly more challenging on Very Hard given that Optical Camo's visibility is negligible until tier 5, and therefore only becomes relevant around the mid ~30s. Stealthers will be more reliant on Cool's mitigation perks, or netrunning perks and quickhacks, simply.

If you want a brain-dead easy build from beginning to end, that would be the build you describe, Sande and Katana. Or Sande and anything, really. With bosses, you just run around until Sande replenishes. Nothing mechanically complex there.

I started a new playthrough on Very Hard recently. I started as a throwing weapon stealth, wanted to go into a hacker ninja sort of build this time, so I ditched Sandevistan. I did this expecting the 2.0 changes to have reworked stealth and netrunning into something less boring. Stealth is still one of the most boring and easiest ways to play the game. Netrunning has become less op and less boring, but still powerful. I don't remember there being throwing weapons at launch and they're some of the most mechanically broken things in the game. If you kill one guard out of a duo with a silenced pistol, the other one is immediately alerted to your presence and combat begins; If you kill one guard out of a duo with a throwing weapon, he takes a page out of Skyrim and questions himself about your location(which is idle on a rooftop 30m away). I ended up switching to a more combat-centric build because there is no challenge and no fun in simply standing idle on a rooftop throwing knives at people while all the enemies in an area line up single file to investigate a vending machine that I've hacked for the 40th time.

The reason I say that you're punished for not picking body+reflex+technical is because you lose out on movement abilities, cyberware and the centre tree of body, not because any of the trees are particularly that powerful in combat.

The game isn't that difficult with almost any build on the hardest difficulty. Add Sandevistan into any build outside of one that relies upon quick hacks and it becomes even less difficult.

how about you play more than 5 hours or so and come back and tell us how that went in very hard? I am playing it on that difficulty and I can honestly say that the base game is pretty manageable, but Phantom Liberty is just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ fight after ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ fight with mechanics straight from the 90s, e.g. the voodoo boy server room with infinite enemies. The mechanics are actually worse than in the base game.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Yawb:

As some have hinted to in here, there is currently a bug that makes his smart weapon bullets do insane 1 shot damage. Go back a save before unplugging the jacked in net-runner and try again, this remedied the problem for me. It may of been an autosave the game made that was bugged for me, i forgot.

If still struggling then yeah, go back a few saves and upgrade your gear i guess.

exactly what i did. altough i didnt realise it was bugged i thought that ability was meant to one shot

[Cal]

Originally posted by Grubbs008:

Originally posted by Yawb:

As some have hinted to in here, there is currently a bug that makes his smart weapon bullets do insane 1 shot damage. Go back a save before unplugging the jacked in net-runner and try again, this remedied the problem for me.

If still struggling then yeah, go back a few saves and upgrade your gear i guess.

Upgrading won't really help, as Armor, especially on Very Hard, does nothing.

quickhacks help, just keep crippling movement and run away, i also used the iconic poison precision rifle, forgot what its called

[Yawb]

Originally posted by Grubbs008:

Originally posted by Yawb:

As some have hinted to in here, there is currently a bug that makes his smart weapon bullets do insane 1 shot damage. Go back a save before unplugging the jacked in net-runner and try again, this remedied the problem for me.

If still struggling then yeah, go back a few saves and upgrade your gear i guess.

Upgrading won't really help, as Armor, especially on Very Hard, does nothing.

I spammed dash(take perk 100% mitigation chance buff for dash), biohazard grenades to lower melee damage encase he got close, i fought him with about 500 armor at level 40 on very hard. It took me a few tries, not really suggesting armor is the solution here. gun dps, your grenade tier, ect.

What also helped me was taking the perk tree in technical that increased how many health item charges you can have by 1. "Health Freak"