Can you still not see the character's reflection with ray tracing on?

[grimoire]

I told myself I wasn't going to try playing again until the ray tracing was fixed so you could see the character in reflections. There was some mod that would do it but without the head, which is not exactly what I'm looking for. Can you still not see the character? Are they never going to do it? They advertise ray tracing with reflections and the first thing I'm looking for is seeing the character.

[DarkOwl]

If I had to guess, it's because the animation and model for the player model would look derpy as hell outside of the very tightly choreographed "apartment mirror" sequences, as noted before. The third person model hasn't been animated properly, and so to avoid some seriously comic immersion-breaking visuals, they just turned it off entirely. The lazy/hack approach, basically.

There is absolutely nothing technical -- absolutely nothing at all -- stopping CDPR from allowing the player model to be rendered in a raytraced reflection. They just need to put the effort in to make the model and animations work correctly so that it doesn't look silly. Chronicles of Riddick: Dark Athena did this properly; it's entirely first person, but you can see your character model reflected perfectly in a bathroom mirror on the Dark Athena, and that game came out in 2009 (I use DA as the example as there weren't any proper mirrors in Butcher Bay).

My favourite artifact as a result of no player reflection in C2077 is when you're carrying around a body. You see the body reflected correctly, but nothing is holding it. It's pretty funny.

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by DarkOwl:

The third person model hasn't been animated properly, and so to avoid some seriously comic immersion-breaking visuals, they just turned it off entirely. The lazy/hack approach, basically.

It's not that it wasn't animated "properly" and it's not that they took the "lazy/hack" approach, it's that designing a model you'll be playing from the first person to be seen in third person is a waste of time and resources. V's model is animated with the player's perspective in mind, so that realistic proportions and movements are eschewed in favor of distorted motions that look more dynamic and engaging in 1st person. This is common (nearly to the point of being standard) in 1st person games.

Originally posted by DarkOwl:

They just need to put the effort in to make the model and animations work correctly so that it doesn't look silly.

It does work correctly. Basically the only time it looks silly is when you're using a mod to see what you weren't intended to be able to see.

Originally posted by DarkOwl:

Chronicles of Riddick: Dark Athena did this properly; it's entirely first person, but you can see your character model reflected perfectly in a bathroom mirror on the Dark Athena, and that game came out in 2009 (I use DA as the example as there weren't any proper mirrors in Butcher Bay).

You know what else wasn't in Escape From Butcher Bay? A multiplayer mode. It's easier to have your character model reflect when it's already been designed to be seen from all angles.

[BigWezz]

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

It does work correctly. Basically the only time it looks silly is when you're using a mod to see what you weren't intended to be able to see.

And seeing the players shadow doing weird janky stuff with its arms, and shadows when swimming which too looks absurd.

Evidence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p23IW6we-WM&ab_channel=pencilmugmouse

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by BigWezz:

And seeing the players shadow doing weird janky stuff with its arms, and shadows when swimming which too looks absurd.

Fair enough. You'll notice, though, that the video is not showing regular gameplay but someone staring at the floor with the express purpose of documenting shadow behavior. I'd argue that if you have to go out of your way to even notice that, it's not necessarily an issue that requires attention.

[BigWezz]

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

Originally posted by BigWezz:

And seeing the players shadow doing weird janky stuff with its arms, and shadows when swimming which too looks absurd.

Fair enough. You'll notice, though, that the video is not showing regular gameplay but someone staring at the floor with the express purpose of documenting shadow behavior. I'd argue that if you have to go out of your way to even notice that, it's not necessarily an issue that requires attention.

I noticed it on my first playthough while next to a wall and seeing V's arms look like noodle arms.

Unfortunately, it is part of the game, no matter how it's slices. Plus its quite noticeable while swimming since you have to look down. Its probably why Pyramid Song is set during the night

But be fair, just because you don't see it as an issue to you, that doesn't necessarily mean its not an issue at all. Plenty have noticed it, and I doubt its what CDPR intended... I hope ..

[Undying Zombie]

Originally posted by ZDuB:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntv60-fH4zQ

Honestly it was a really good trick back then. Since it was the room recreated in another spot to make the illusion of a working mirror.

Its also funny how a old game like that has done mirrors better than a lot of modern games despite the fact that its easier to make actual reflections compared to back then.

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by BigWezz:

But be fair, just because you don't see it as an issue to you, that doesn't necessarily mean its not an issue at all.

I didn't say it's not an issue at all. I said it's not necessarily an issue that requires attention.

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by Undying Zombie:

Its also funny how a old game like that has done mirrors better than a lot of modern games despite the fact that its easier to make actual reflections compared to back then.

No, it's not easier now. Having to render and display twice as many 3D elements in real time is not easier than plopping down a simple pixel sprite. What Duke Nukem 3D is doing is one step above what Adventures in the Magic Kingdom does on the NES (skip to 1:45):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GsuPHQvCvc

it would be especially complicated for CP77 to have V be reflected if they wanted to maintain the animations from the player's perspective, in which case they would need to render one model for 1st person and another model that's only visible in reflections (which would inevitably lead to contradictions between the two, leading to more complaints).

[BigWezz]

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

Originally posted by BigWezz:

But be fair, just because you don't see it as an issue to you, that doesn't necessarily mean its not an issue at all.

I didn't say it's not an issue at all. I said it's not necessarily an issue that requires attention.

Yeah, you don't see it as an issue that requires attention, others do. Its just the way it is, its just all opinion based

[Termina]

Why are people not getting this. V's model in first person is not the same one seen in 3rd person. The 1st person model has no head or it would obscure the camera. In fact many 1st person games where you can mod the 3rd person model into 1st person usually have issues with the camera clipping inside the head.

The mirrors in the game don't use ray-tracing. They rely on a technique that has been in gaming for decades called planar reflections which essentially render the whole scene AGAIN from the perspective of the mirror. They can be incredibly inefficient and taxing on the system which is why the game has a quality setting for them; and generally why developers limit them to small objects such as bathroom mirrors.

[grimoire]

Originally posted by Termina:

Why are people not getting this. V's model in first person is not the same one seen in 3rd person. The 1st person model has no head or it would obscure the camera. In fact many 1st person games where you can mod the 3rd person model into 1st person usually have issues with the camera clipping inside the head.

The mirrors in the game don't use ray-tracing. They rely on a technique that has been in gaming for decades called planar reflections which essentially render the whole scene AGAIN from the perspective of the mirror. They can be incredibly inefficient and taxing on the system which is why the game has a quality setting for them; and generally why developers limit them to small objects such as bathroom mirrors.

There are ray traced reflections all over the game (water puddles etc) from what I remember. Just not the mirrors.

[Xerazal]

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

Originally posted by Zero McDol:

Except V... I wonder why that is?

I'm guessing it's because V's model is not meant to be seen by the player. If V had a reflection we'd see the awkward and janky model we see in the 3rd person mods.

This. V doesn't have a head in gameplay. Its actually a pretty common thing with fps games to do this, as its where the camera is.

[Doom]

Originally posted by Termina:

The 1st person model has no head or it would obscure the camera.

Modern games - all of them, use back-face culling, and camera with near clipping plane. You won't see skin from inside of the head, and you won't see tongue, teeth and eyelashes, because they're below your line of sight, and you won't see eyelashes if clip-plane is not too close. Games like VRChat and SkyrimVR with VRIK use 3rd person model in 1st person and it works.

Honestly, you should play SkyrimVR with VRIK. Also PREY2. Also FEAR. Also VRChat.

They could work around rays possibly clipping through V's head, they just didn't try to.

[grimoire]

Still??? Come on CDPR.

[-ETU-Daedalus]

Funny thing is, if you start looking into a interactive mirror, right before the mirror activates, (which then show the full reflection) you'll see a faint low res reflection of V, even without RT.

It should be possible for them to add at least this level of reflection detail.

As much as they wanted it to be """immersive""" and all the marketing ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and cut third person cutscenes (which they probably done because of time restrains and NOT because of "immersion"), it's pretty weak that you can't see your reflection while in some first person games you can.