Temperance Ending [Spoilers]

[Rage]

I beat the game yesterday. While I was reading posts about people's thoughts on the ending, I noticed seemingly no one besides myself considers Temperance a "good" ending. I know there really isn't a typical hero saves the day and all is well ending, but out of the shades of sadness offered I like Temperance the best. Your choice is to continue to suffer through a painful final few months (during which your quality of life would probably be terrible), be a pawn in someone else's game (again) and take on a suicide mission, or release the shackles of humanity while giving a damaged soul (Silverhand) another chance at life.
Obviously, no one can say what plans Alt has or what lurks beyond the Blackwall, but it IS a future. V might lose his sense of "self" to become part of a massive AI or become an independent AI. The implications aren't really fleshed out well, but at the very least V would *probably* have some semblance of agency still. He/She might not be motivated by human emotions anymore, but some might see that as a benefit. Emotions do cause us humans a great deal of trouble. V's lifespan is dramatically increased and possibly his cognition amplified. Alt seems to have become "more" rather than less from her time off the mortal coil. It's an uncertain ending and an uncertain future for V but it's the only one that affords him the chance to keep making moves far into the future.
Anyways, I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on the matter.

[Hellsmoke]

Originally posted by Rage:

while giving a damaged soul (Silverhand) another chance at life.

See this is the part I don't like about the whole thing. Screw Silverhand, he had his life and wasted it from the sound of it and not a bad one at that. He seemed to be living the life and had he made the right decisions he'd be living like Kerry and the rest.

Not only that but look at all the crap people went through to help you survive, how many people died. For what? So that Silverhand can have a second chance? What about Panam if you chose that route, she risked the whole family to help you so you can just give your life to Silverhand.

Really dumb writing imo, glad we have the option to tell Silverhand to go pound sand which is exactly what I did lol.

[SirKnechtalot]

I choose the same ending for my first playthrough. I realy liked how they fleshed out the space station part. Quite good narative and not overly dramatic despite the situation. At first i thought V´d gone insane. I wasn´t inclined to let the copy take over anyways. I had the expectation you´d go nutz from too much cyberware so i didn´t go full cyborg with the netrunner build.
Next time i´ll go the creepy exchange everything route. ^^

[Rage]

Originally posted by hellsmoke77:

Originally posted by Rage:

while giving a damaged soul (Silverhand) another chance at life.

See this is the part I don't like about the whole thing. Screw Silverhand, he had his life and wasted it from the sound of it and not a bad one at that. He seemed to be living the life and had he made the right decisions he'd be living like Kerry and the rest.

Not only that but look at all the crap people went through to help you survive, how many people died. For what? So that Silverhand can have a second chance? What about Panam if you chose that route, she risked the whole family to help you so you can just give your life to Silverhand.

Really dumb writing imo, glad we have the option to tell Silverhand to go pound sand which is exactly what I did lol.

You can actually solo the Arrasaka tower without Panam's crew. You could also just let Rogue and Johnny do the raid. That being said I did use Panam's crew and it was the only thing that gave me pause when the moment came. She's a great character. They sacrificed a lot to get there, but what's the point in trading at least 4 lives for 6 months?

[Rage]

Originally posted by SirKnechtalot:

I choose the same ending for my first playthrough. I realy liked how they fleshed out the space station part. Quite good narative and not overly dramatic despite the situation. At first i thought V´d gone insane. I wasn´t inclined to let the copy take over anyways. I had the expectation you´d go nutz from too much cyberware so i didn´t go full cyborg with the netrunner build.
Next time i´ll go the creepy exchange everything route. ^^

I believe you are talking about the Arrasaka ending "Devil" not Temperance.

[SirKnechtalot]

Originally posted by Rage:

I believe you are talking about the Arrasaka ending "Devil" not Temperance.

O.k.? I didn´t get the achievement so i didn´t know what ending is what. Maybe i could´ve read your whole post. ^^
Yeah then i´m the devil for overriding the chip with "me". Makes the next playthrough more exciting.
Sadly they didn´t built the cyberpsycho feature in since that´s one of the reasons you´d pick your cyberware carefully. At least you cannot remove slots once taken.

[Nailes]

He seemed to be living the life and had he made the right decisions he'd be living like Kerry and the rest.

Well since we are talking spoilers I'd like to comment, more spoilers, lol

Johnny cared about Alt and went after her, spending what money he had to. He believed she was dead until she contacted him later and said she was in Mikoshi, Arasaka's soul prison. Johnny cared about her and now discovered that the Corporations werent just controlling people, they were taking their 'soul', kidnapping the ones they wanted and putting their psyche into their soulprison.
Johnny attacked Arasaka, I dont think he believed he could destroy them but hurt them he could, destroy the soulprison while he was there and release Alt and the others imprisoned there. Its the reason Alt listens to you when you go past the blackwall.

His decisions werent wrong. He just didnt make it out. You get the impression that he is a jerk until after a while you notice he is really a troubled person. He sees the awful world he lives in and realises he is powerless to do anything about it. He put his anger into his music but that isnt enough, once off stage it troubles him again. The abduction of Alt and discovery of Mikoshi is what pushes him over that edge and makes him go boom.
And honestly, I would hate that world/city if I lived in aswell.

What the game is missing at the end is the formation of a movement that stops(or tries to) the corporations. But apart from a handful of signs in that direction(Like River Ward saying at the end he gives weapons to those who fight the Corporations) there is little of that. They didnt even try to make Johnny(if he gets your body) to be the person who changes everything for the better. Its unfortunate really.
The game has quite a bit of untapped potential.

Going into the net seems like a good ending but its not explained. Even Johnny seems uncertain about it. That should have been fleshed out more, I agree.

[IrationalFear]

A reminder that the Temperance ending can come about several ways:

-Stick with Panam, friends die, V give body to Johnny.
-Don't Fear The Reaper (Solo the tower so that nobody dies because of you), V gives body to Johnny, Rogue is still alive.
-Give Johnny control to attack Arasaka with Rogue, JOHNNY decides whether to take the body or go with Alt.

The nomad route can easily feel like a betrayal of the people you both helped and who tried to save you while never even knowing about Silverhand if you give Johnny your body.

Don't Fear The Reaper is the most sensible version to give it to Johnny, as it already bears the self-sacrificial themes in choosing it.

But the Rogue ending? That one has V's engram talking to Johnny and already showing distinctions from normal V. And engram V is not always in good shape or on good terms with Johnny. As you control Johnny during that ending, you can even tell V that you don't care what they think and take their body without further discussion, a final act of betrayal against V since their first death and Tapeworm/Chippin' In. We've already seen the AI Alt bears little resemblance to Alt Cunningham after so many years beyond the blackwall. V has only been an engram for a few minutes and has already lost the "default street kid" dialogue, and their emotional state may be very different from what you've been playing thus far.

Player engram V has some agency but will soon have to surrender it to Alt's mercy (who is already willing to override whatever V may want even after everything else). But NPC engram V in the Rogue ending? They're screwed. Especially if V wasn't a netrunning specialist as Alt Cunningham was prior to soulkiller.

It's unfortunate that V never has the chance to express some pro-transhumanist opinions or hopes that you seem to put in the OP; that would help a lot with character development and make Temperance more appealing. As is, though, a primal fear of losing identity and becoming something unrecognizable is a core theme that V can engage with at several points in the story, which IMO makes engram V's decision to go with Alt a very uncertain and frightening prospect that solves one of V's two crises while failing the other.


Crisis 1: V is terminally ill and mortal.
Crisis 2: V is losing their sense of self, their identity, integrity of personality.

Keeping your body chooses to solve crisis 2 but guarantee a death within the year.
Temperance instead takes Crisis 1 as the greater threat and gives up on 2, OR view both as failed but can give both resolutions to changed man Johnny Silverhand.


I like it for Don't Fear the Reaper, though for different reasons than you. I don't like it for the rest, either because it feels like wasting the Aldecaldos (Panam is swearing bloody murder at Johnny's voice messages in the ending), or because comes across as a betrayal of Johnny's promises and actions in Tapeworm and Chippin' In (even if V's engram expresses consent to Johnny taking the body); granted, the latter is an interpretation of the character and provides a fitting consequence for giving up control of one's life and decisions to other people (especially the untrustworthy).

[Triggerhappy]

True, but then everybody's lives that V touched would be adversely affected, ableit at the cost of V themself (supposedly). There is still the chance that V could have some sort of treatment. Nanites were hinted at in a newscast as a means to continuously repair nerve damage done by MS. There's no truly definite end for V, hinted at by various character dialogue. Even further beyond, there is the philosophy behind each ending, and what it means to the message of the story as a whole and how each pertains to the real world. You're also not the only one who feels similarly; check out this exceptional review on the youtubes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDJuTqmdBs

I should add that when "Silverhand" assumes your body, it is no longer truly Silverhand, nor is it truly V when they reassume their body. It's a bit of a mess.
Edit: wrong link

[Cat®]

Definitely is one of the better outcomes for V, in my opinion. By the time the choice is laid out in front of them the Soulkiller has already been deployed so the teletransport paradox is already in effect; for both V and Johnny. It's clear that Silverhand does not, at all, like the idea of being completely digitised, so if V isn't as bothered that's clearly an okay division of goodies.

Unlike Silverhand, V never really had a chance at a full life; they die young. So having an option to continue, even if that is in a non-human form, is definitely a fine alternative to being snuffed early. Sure, maybe V was instantly absorbed into the AI known as Alt and will just be isolated memories in the future; but that's no different than being dead from V's perspective. The digital world is a whole new world, where the outcome is not predetermined. Maybe V goes on to exist happily for several million years, maybe they were obliterated the moment they left Mikoshi, maybe the Net was destroyed 120 years later; who knows? But yeah, it is a future, it is a world.

I think it's interesting how the ending plays with the concept of time. Dead in 6 months or 60 years is absolutely irrelevant from the perspective of a creature that intends to live for as long as possible; both are significantly shorter than one would like. Silverhand clearly doesn't mind those 6 months, he is flipped to living in the moment for those 6 months. Quits smoking knowing full well he doesn't have to. What to V was a miserably short time is a blessing to Silverhand, so at least for him this is clearly not a bad outcome.

I really don't see how anyone would see this as a bad outcome, presuming it was by choice. V gets exactly what they want, and Silverhand gets to retire, briefly. Live out some of that wisdom he acquired along the way. Bittersweet, definitely, but there is definitely a future there. As opposed to, say, 'The Devil' ending which ignoring a brief stint in hell turns out to be pretty much objectively worse.

[Minty]

The only really good ending is the one-shot solo raid on Arasaka. It is the only ending that allows you to straight-up expel Johnny and just keep your body. If this game had one canon ending, it should be this one, even though it's technically a secret.

[Hellsmoke]

Originally posted by Nailes:

He seemed to be living the life and had he made the right decisions he'd be living like Kerry and the rest.

Well since we are talking spoilers I'd like to comment, more spoilers, lol

Johnny cared about Alt and went after her, spending what money he had to. He believed she was dead until she contacted him later and said she was in Mikoshi, Arasaka's soul prison. Johnny cared about her and now discovered that the Corporations werent just controlling people, they were taking their 'soul', kidnapping the ones they wanted and putting their psyche into their soulprison.
Johnny attacked Arasaka, I dont think he believed he could destroy them but hurt them he could, destroy the soulprison while he was there and release Alt and the others imprisoned there. Its the reason Alt listens to you when you go past the blackwall.

His decisions werent wrong. He just didnt make it out. You get the impression that he is a jerk until after a while you notice he is really a troubled person. He sees the awful world he lives in and realises he is powerless to do anything about it. He put his anger into his music but that isnt enough, once off stage it troubles him again. The abduction of Alt and discovery of Mikoshi is what pushes him over that edge and makes him go boom.
And honestly, I would hate that world/city if I lived in aswell.

What the game is missing at the end is the formation of a movement that stops(or tries to) the corporations. But apart from a handful of signs in that direction(Like River Ward saying at the end he gives weapons to those who fight the Corporations) there is little of that. They didnt even try to make Johnny(if he gets your body) to be the person who changes everything for the better. Its unfortunate really.
The game has quite a bit of untapped potential.

Going into the net seems like a good ending but its not explained. Even Johnny seems uncertain about it. That should have been fleshed out more, I agree.

Pretty much agree with everything here. Like you said at the end if there was some payoff to giving a second chance that would be a different story but they didn't offer any of that as far as I know.

[Rage]

Originally posted by Cat®:

snip.

Loved your post, and it's cool af to see someone with the same perspective. Just wanted to point out that Johnny actually doesn't have the 6 month deadline. The only reason V did was because the Relic process was complete and the body was now "Johnny Silverhand". Thus, causing the body to attack V like an intruder. So Silverhand truly gets to start a new when you send his engram back. At least, that was my understanding of it.

[Cat®]

Originally posted by Rage:

Originally posted by Cat®:

snip.

Loved your post, and it's cool af to see someone with the same perspective. Just wanted to point out that Johnny actually doesn't have the 6 month deadline. The only reason V did was because the Relic process was complete and the body was now "Johnny Silverhand". Thus, causing the body to attack V like an intruder. So Silverhand truly gets to start a new when you send his engram back. At least, that was my understanding of it.

Actually, now that you mention it; yeah that does make sense. I suppose there would be no problem for Silverhand simply living out a natural life. Didn't even think about that. Well, all the better for him then, I suppose. Die young and resurrect in a beautiful corpse.

[Minty]

Originally posted by Nailes:

His decisions werent wrong. He just didnt make it out. You get the impression that he is a jerk until after a while you notice he is really a troubled person. He sees the awful world he lives in and realises he is powerless to do anything about it. He put his anger into his music but that isnt enough, once off stage it troubles him again. The abduction of Alt and discovery of Mikoshi is what pushes him over that edge and makes him go boom.

The fundamental problem with this, as V points out to Johnny, is that destroying buildings doesn't fix humanity's exploitative nature, nor is it Johnny's right to "wake up" anyone who isn't interested in his anger or pain or whatever. Committing atrocities in the name of making the world a better place never had any redeeming qualities.

You could argue that Johnny's war against Arasaka is no different than any other war, and that sometimes wars need to be fought. Unfortunately, he isn't actually fighting for anything. The building is still there. It will always be there. In one form or another. With one name or another on it. Forever. So all Johnny has is his idealism and violence, which is a toxic combination.

He's a truly terrible human being. Self-consumed, self-righteous, and a terrorist.

[Sherbert]

If you go through all of the side gigs and missions you will find a monk and participate in several meditations with him. One thing that kept popping in to my head was that several times in the game you hear how Silverhand is not the old Silverhand but he is "you". If you look closely enough, Silverhand "changed his mind" and did not want to kill you anymore, he even seemed happy to help you get rid of him at times. And the encounter with the monk and sealed it for me, Silverhand is just as much you as you are you in the game. He is not a separate entity just because he talks back at you, the monk tells you that he and you are you all together. If you know tarrot too, you will see that Death is not an ending, death means change, V emphasizes that he is dying througout the game, if you get in to it he is pretty much saying that he is changing. You can fight the change ofc, but I think that the temperance ending is best as you are not fighting what is beyond you, you are going with it and making peace.