Cyberpunk 2077

Cyberpunk 2077

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Lord Quinton 11 jan. 2021 às 20:19
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Religion and cyberpunk 2077
Fair warning, this is gonna get ranty.
discliamer #2: i havent completed all the side missions in the game yet. So there may be others that pertain to this, let me know so i can check them out and amend this as needed.
disclaimer #3: i identify as christian
disclaimer #4: i recognize every major religion is up to their eyebrows in heinous acts, and they all have their fair share of hypocrisy.

So, i've just finished the questline where you help a guy get crucified, and I gotta say i'm kinda pissed. First off, as far as I've seen, there are only 2 religions represented in cyberpunk, that being buddhism and christianity. I've done the mission where the budhist monks got kidnapped by maelstrom and you have to rescue one before he gets chipped. I feel like the way religion is represented in the game is callous at best and rather insulting at worst. I ran through the crucifixion quests several times and as far as i can tell there is no way to keep the guy from going through with it. Perhaps someone will correct me on this.

Regardless, throughout the whole questline, even before i knew where it was going, the guy was presents as an incredibly smug ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ who really needed a good beating or two. I'm still not sure if the intent of the first quest, was to make you hate this guy or feel sympathy for him. For anyone who doesn't know

*SPOILER ALERT*

V gets hired to kill someone, with the caveat that the guy who pays for the job wants to watch you do it. Turns out the guy who hired you wants you to murder the man who killed his wife. You do a small scripted car chase, and finally trap the car carrying the target, an NCPD vehicle. The guy who hired you jumps out and decides to kill the bastard himself, as he approaches the other car an NCPD officer gets out and kills him. side note: if you shoot anyone at this point you get a police bounty on you and cops spawn in all over the area. So, at this point you get recruited by joshua, the smug asshat who killed a bunch of people and found god in prison while on death row.

Your next stop is where joshua visits the house of a family whose son he murdered back in his bad ole days. He is looking for forgiveness from the mother of the murdered son, of course she doesn't know he's home, much to her surprise. Afterwards, you go get pizza and casually chitchat over light topics like does god exist and why does this moron want to get crucified. I should point out that this idea (for him to be crucified) came from a BD scrolling studio that wants to make a braindance of his crucifixion (and sell it for tons of eddies) and he seems to think that all the terrible people in night city will find religion or some ♥♥♥♥ by his immitating christs death.

In the end joshua wants you to watch him die, oh and be the person who nails him to the cross.

*END SPOILERS*

So, I gotta wonder, why buddhism and christianity? why no islam, no judaism? how about taoism, shintoism, hinduism, or any of the hundreds of other religions? And furthermore why represent these religions in what seriously feels like mocking ways? One of the core tenets of the buddhist monks is to reject any and all cyberware, to keep their bodies pure. I could have totally seen a mission where you have to go rescue BOTH monks before they get chipped, and if you go to slow then one or both still get it. That would have allowed a casual brush with that religion without necessarily seeming callous or uncaring in any way, because it is now up to the player to decide if the monks get screwed or not, it doesn't just happen by default.

And I'm really mystified and moderately angry as to why they chose pretty much everything in the crucifixion questline, everything from the revenge obsessed guy who dies right at the start making all of this pointless, to the smug asshat who ambushes a mother and asks for forgiveness for murdering her son, to the whole mockery of what is literally one of if not the central tenet of christianity?

And on top of all this, religion really isn't a central point of the game, the idea of life existing after death is broached a few times but its almost immediately swept under the rug every time. Its almost like CDPR shied away from religion but decided to sneak a couple stories in anyway to what effect? to point out the pointlessness of religion? make fun of a couple that they know wont bite them back? seriously, what the ♥♥♥♥ guys?
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Cat® 12 jan. 2021 às 5:40 
The crucifixion of Christ is a central aspect of all Abrahamic faith, and relevant to all of them; so the quest isn't really "Christian" as much as the character you engage with is. I'd also wager Christianity, particularly Catholicism, is what the writer was most familiar with being in Poland and thus likely being either from the area or an English-speaking country (Christian all). There is also more weight given to the concept of redemption in Christianity, it is after all what separates it from its sibling religions. The image of the born-again Christian is one most people know, and for example a born again Hinduist wouldn't really have the same kind of symbolic weight.

So I wouldn't see it as a criticism of Christianity as much as it goes along with the theme of exploitation. In the Cyberpunk universe everything is commodified; work, food, drugs; and most importantly even your very body down to your genitals. Cybernetic implants go so far as to now challenge death itself with the relic chip, so you can never, ever, escape the grasp of the corporation. You either work within their system or you suffer outside of it, because if the advertising for "RealWater" doesn't get you, the man-made bioweapon that kills off all melons that aren't manufactured by Biotechnia will. The corporate involvement with SInnerman and his faith is just that; corporations are now touching even your faith. Even God is not immune to the corrupting tendrils of the corporate tyrants.

And as any good Christian should know, the split between Catholicism and Protestantism is entirely based on the perceived injustice of commodifying God. Now that is simply taken a step further that it is no longer the Pope in Rome who controls your access to God, it is Google in Los Angeles. A disgusting perversion of faith, I'd say. Sinnerman himself being, very obviously, off his fricking nut also builds into this. He might be completely convinced of his faith but it is obvious to those around him that he is essentially self-aggrandising in that faith. He didn't seek redemption in God's eyes because he regrets his actions, he does it because he sees in it another type of control and status. In his faith he justifies his actions as just one minor speedbump on the road to redemption, and, assuredly, prophet-hood.

The virtuous religious character in all of this, the one you are supposed to relate to if you are yourself religious; is V. V, if played as a Christian, is the only one who treats their faith as personal and beneficiary. V prays, V sits with Sinnerman and goes along with his ridiculous scheme, and V is the one that can criticise and intervene in the crucifixion. I am sure you can start pulling some biblical allegory here, because I note to you that the three people in that car are Sinnerman, whose name is fairly on the nose, a representative for the state, and a representative for the corporations (merchants). I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that the studio is a temple, but I imagine you'll see similarities with a close reading.

And I suggest even to you that there are two other Christians in this story, namely the family Sinnerman visits. One, the younger, is willing to show mercy and redemption to Sinnerman. Whereas the older can not condone Sinnerman's behaviour and openly criticises him for thinking he can set foot in the house of his victims as if that is anything but a spite to them. Sinnerman is deluded enough to think this would be fine, because his faith is superficial. It does not fit the narrative so he can't comprehend the human element of worship that might reject him even though his good book says they ought not to. Because, of course, there are more ways than one to find and give redemption.

So, in conclusion, I think this is a pretty good dip into religion in that world. But I understand that it might be frustrating to see it from the secular perspective if you yourself aren't, because obviously all of this hinges on "spirituality as personal" as our merchant friend says. That it is self-contained and limited on the individual and does not affect the world on a metaphysical level. To which I would just like to mention that the reason eastern spirituality is a topic in this game, and tarot, is because a central theme of Cyberpunk the universe; humanity loses its touch with all things not machine as they involve themselves deeper into cybernetics and cities. Maintaining your humanity is a game mechanic of the tabletop, for example. So I'd say the Sinnerman questline perfectly encapsulates this phenomenon that religion is "lost", that only a few manage to hold on to something more than the pursuit for profit and power. Some of those are Christian families, some are Buddhist monks in the streets, some are quietly practising whatever it is they practise in the privacy of their own home.

So the TL;DR for all of this I suppose is that if you are a Christian you should be offended by what you see because it is a perversion of your faith, but it is done with the intent to show a 'God is dead and we killed him' kind of reality, and it applies to everyone equally. There are a handful of shrine and temples, and most of them are storehouses for ammunition or covered in garbage. In this world people are reduced to animals striving for survival.

In fact the most notable shrine in the game, a shrine to Buddha, is a hiding spot for an illegal a server. And of course, there is the matter of the missing tarot card: The Devil.
Em[i]L 12 jan. 2021 às 5:45 
i simply put a bullet in the head of this guy, like this, no crucifiction or anything like that,also killed the two cops and the girl in the suv, nothing personal.quest completed with no need to bother with them and no need to be annoyed by usual religious bulshitt.
Última alteração por Em[i]L; 12 jan. 2021 às 5:46
Husker_85 12 jan. 2021 às 5:48 
Originalmente postado por EmiL:
i simply put a bullet in the head of this guy, like this, no crucifiction or anything like that,also killed the two cops and the girl in the suv, nothing personal.quest completed with no need to bother with them and no need to be annoyed by usual religious bulshitt.
You absolutely did NOT kill invulnerable supercop Vasquez.
Originalmente postado por Heavens Blade:
We'll all be better off once religion is relegated to the past anyway.
Eh, i hear religion exists because people want something to believe in and stay safe in a bubble.I'm not atheist but agnostic and i'm just sharing my opinion.
Em[i]L 12 jan. 2021 às 5:55 
Originalmente postado por Isaac Clark:
Originalmente postado por EmiL:
i simply put a bullet in the head of this guy, like this, no crucifiction or anything like that,also killed the two cops and the girl in the suv, nothing personal.quest completed with no need to bother with them and no need to be annoyed by usual religious bulshitt.
You absolutely did NOT kill invulnerable supercop Vasquez.

dude, i did, he is not invulnerable ,i killed him right after being out of the car after the chase.
edit : if he is supposed to be invulnerable, so i guess something has gone really wrong lmao
Última alteração por Em[i]L; 12 jan. 2021 às 6:00
Munchies 12 jan. 2021 às 6:13 
You cant nail that guy without saying "hes not going anywhere" ...


On topic I was annoyed that no one stabbed him. One soldier stabbed Jesus otherwise he would have hung there untill he dies from thirst ... And they wanted to speed up the process ... And the guy in CP77 just got nailed and died right after. Where is the biblical accuracy ...
Husker_85 12 jan. 2021 às 6:24 
Originalmente postado por Munchies NerdsBG:
You cant nail that guy without saying "hes not going anywhere" ...


On topic I was annoyed that no one stabbed him. One soldier stabbed Jesus otherwise he would have hung there untill he dies from thirst ... And they wanted to speed up the process ... And the guy in CP77 just got nailed and died right after. Where is the biblical accuracy ...
I agree; it was kind of odd that he died just moments after being hoisted up. Could have even let the player keep the 'spear' as an iconic weapon.
Black Hole 12 jan. 2021 às 6:31 
Seems like all the characters in the game make some Christian related comment on some level, good or bad...mostly bad but what do you expect from this game?
Black Hole 12 jan. 2021 às 6:33 
Originalmente postado por Munchies NerdsBG:
You cant nail that guy without saying "hes not going anywhere" ...


On topic I was annoyed that no one stabbed him. One soldier stabbed Jesus otherwise he would have hung there untill he dies from thirst ... And they wanted to speed up the process ... And the guy in CP77 just got nailed and died right after. Where is the biblical accuracy ...

I thought he was stabbed to prove he is dead, and to fulfill the prophecy.
Minty 12 jan. 2021 às 7:44 
Originalmente postado por KENJI:
In poland they really are crazy catholic, arent they?
Yeah, like 9/10 people.
Lord Quinton 12 jan. 2021 às 18:06 
Originalmente postado por Cat®:
So the TL;DR for all of this I suppose is that if you are a Christian you should be offended by what you see because it is a perversion of your faith, but it is done with the intent to show a 'God is dead and we killed him' kind of reality, and it applies to everyone equally. There are a handful of shrine and temples, and most of them are storehouses for ammunition or covered in garbage. In this world people are reduced to animals striving for survival.

In fact the most notable shrine in the game, a shrine to Buddha, is a hiding spot for an illegal a server. And of course, there is the matter of the missing tarot card: The Devil.

That was an exceptionally well thought well expressed argument for the inclusion of the quest. I just wish V and thereby the player had some power to control the direction of the quest in any way. If the idea truly was to show that god is dead and we killed him, then it becomes even more important for the player to make the decision as to whether sinnerman goes to the cross or you persuade him out of it. Unfortunately, instead of being able to decide to tow the corpo line for personal greed, and thus prove the truth in the saying of "god is dead and we killed him" or to fight back against the corps that pervert everything in our lives, coincidentally, something that johnny silverhand is all about, we are forced to be a passenger to this damn silly thing.

This like so many other things in cyberpunk 2077 could have been done 1000x better.




Originalmente postado por Hex:
Didn't read the thread, so sorry if this has been said, but there are lore reasons. Read the cyberpunk 2020 background lore to get a better understanding of the setting.

And keep in mind that this stuff was written in the 80s, so take off your modern day glasses,

Also, the guy is completely insane and the point of the quest is to illustrate how the media props up and takes advantage of people like him.

some people have mentioned lore reasons, if nothing else, read Cats response on page 5. I just really hate how poorly written and implemented the quest was.
Última alteração por Lord Quinton; 12 jan. 2021 às 18:08
SkunkWerks 12 jan. 2021 às 18:20 
Originalmente postado por Lord Quinton:
disclaimer #4: i recognize every major religion is up to their eyebrows in heinous acts

So, full-disclosure: I am founding a religion, and I'm going to call it "Our Lady of Eyebrow-Deep Heinous Acts".

Because I figure I may as well get a head-start.


With that bit of black humor out of the way, I also found the crucifixion storyline troubling... But less because of religion (am I allowed to identify as a long-departed Catholic Expatriate?), and more because I just don't have an easy window into comprehending acts of intent brutality (see also "WHY I am a Catholic Expatriate").

Like... I just don't get it- personally. I don't get it as a substitute for virtue, as an allegory of strength. Zippo. And I am really, really, NOT okay with it just flippantly thrown into something without much apparent purpose for it.


Johnny's dogged insistence on the idea that there was some meaning in it I at first found really... well for lack of a better word, kinda irritating.

It didn't feel like I was being given much of a choice in the matter (yes, I know you can walk away- but this also didn't feel right; I felt compelled to engage in some way), and that irritated me too.

I was almost going to quite deliberately give this whole thing the bird, and then I guess I had a "revelation" of sorts. Something clicked.


This guy was trying to go out his own way- on his own terms. He'd tried begging forgiveness, and that didn't really work out well (kinda, but not really- and to be fair it probably wasn't destined to go well anyway), he'd found no solace in the arms of "reality media" (no surprise there)...

There wasn't much left to him.

So he decided he wanted his death to mean something. I don't know if I agree with the presentation still- but I understood the desire pretty keenly.

I'd spent by that point many hours in the game watching life being treated cheaply- people getting eaten up and spat out by the City- and I realized: Johnny has a point.


So, I went through with it.


Originalmente postado por Lord Quinton:
And on top of all this, religion really isn't a central point of the game, the idea of life existing after death is broached a few times but its almost immediately swept under the rug every time. Its almost like CDPR shied away from religion but decided to sneak a couple stories in anyway to what effect? to point out the pointlessness of religion? make fun of a couple that they know wont bite them back? seriously, what the ♥♥♥♥ guys?

So, I'm just going to say: I'm really not sure that you were ever slated to love the idea of religion viewed through a cyberpunk "lens" pretty much from the get-go.

This is a genre that asks a lot of pretty deep questions about the nature of existence, sentience, agency... And there aren't meant to be easy answers to any of them.

Perhaps as good a reason as any for "why Christianity and Buddhism?" is because the former is about answering questions, and the latter about asking them?

I don't know, really.
Última alteração por SkunkWerks; 12 jan. 2021 às 18:39
Doctor Go-Go 12 jan. 2021 às 18:40 
I think the majority of gamers would prefer it to NOT be pretentious. It fall under whatever, the exact details are not important.
♠.brT 12 jan. 2021 às 18:48 
Okay, a few things.

First, about the Buddhist Monks, I don't understand what your problem is with that sidequest.

How exactly would it be more respectful to the religion if the game allowed you to save both, rather than only giving you a chance at saving one of them?

I guess because you think that the fact that game allowed it to happen at all is offensive to the religion in question? why? How is it offensive?

I think you are just upset that you didn't get the chance of saving both of them, which is fine, yeah i felt bad for the monk that got chipped too, but the game is trying to show you something with that scene, and it isn't anything negative about buddhism, its about about the insanity of the Malestrom guys, that are so utterly evil that they are willing to forcefully implant cyberware into the body of people who do not want them. That is shocking, but its important to show that kind of stuff to make the world feel real, because in the real world, awful people, who take pleasure in inflicting pain and misery onto others exist, and the game is trying to show you that, this is why they didn't gave you the option of saving both of them.


Now for the crucifixion, again i don't get your criticism here, it seems to me you are just offended they included, and i ask you, why is it offensive to you? I didn't see as mockery of christianity. why would it be? becuase they reenacted the crucifixion of Jesus? so what? Christians reenact that famous part of your religious story every damn year. Why is it offensive that the game decided to include a reenactment of that story and mix it in with the cyberpunk world features. (like BDs that give the users the feeling of real pain and emotions from those bds).

The only possible reason for being offended here i guess i because there are discussions between V and Johnny that either mock him/feelt pity for him or portray him as some kind of prophet.
I don't see as any of these things as being offensive because lets be honest, those are exactly the things that would be discussed if someone were to do that for real. People would mock the poor fool who decided to go through with that insanity, some would feel pity for them believing that they had some kind of mental problem, and a small portion of the people who witness such event would worship the fool believing that he was some kind of prophet.

I also don't quite get your criticism that they picked christianity and buddhism and not others. Why do they need to "in fairness" to one religion also make other religions subject in their story as well? There is no reason why if they are going to feature aspects of one religion into the game they also need to include aspects of others, people who say that are basically saying that they shouldn't include any aspects of a religion in the game. Because they know its simply not possible to include every major religion, and even if it was possible in terms of resource of development, it wouldn't even fit into the game's world.

Let me remind you that Night City is located in the Continental US, in the west coast, Northern California, so Christianity would be a major religion, even in the screwed up world of Cyberpunk, as for buddhism, i don't know if its actually a thing in Northern california, but maybe the developers really like buddhism, because one thing that i didn't see you mention in your OP about the buddhist in Cyberpunk is that there is also another Buddhist that helps V medidate and has some straight up paranormal powers, which to mee seems to show buddhism in a very positive light.

Also, you are wrong, there is a way to prevent the crucifixion, when you first meet Joshua, put a bullet in his head.
Última alteração por ♠.brT; 12 jan. 2021 às 18:55
SkunkWerks 12 jan. 2021 às 18:53 
Originalmente postado por ♠.brT:
Now for the crucifixion, again i don't get your criticism here, it seems to me you are just offended they included, and i ask you, why is it offensive to you? I didn't see as mockery of christianity. why would it be? becuase they reenacted the crucifixion of Jesus? so what? Christians reenact that famous part of your religious story every damn year.

'Every damn mass' actually. Body and Blood of Christ... Fun for the whole family.

Of course there's a sacramental "phrasing" there, and that's where you're usually skating on that proverbial thin ice with the Faithful: when you spake the same sentence, but without the sacramental brackets.

It's also a kind of litmus test for where the Dogma catches the Karma (and doesn't know what to do with it).
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Postado a: 11 jan. 2021 às 20:19
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