Did Thomas Zane actually..

[Hawk]

HEAVY SPOILERS FOR THE FIRST GAME!








.. kill Barbara Jagger at the end?
Just finished the game for the first time. (Halloween occasion, not AW2 hype) Awesome game. Everyone reading this should be aware of the ending. I tried to look some theories up, check what people had to say, and I haven't found one theorizing on this topic.

At the end, we hear a soundbite of Barbara pleading "Please don't" and it sounds like she's getting killed. There's a hole in her stomach, which Alan pushes the Clicker into before turning it on.

Is this whole story potentially a murder novelists fiction who has gone insane and is filled with regret about killing his beloved muse?
Barbara and Alice suffer the same fate, Thomas wrote a page about Alan's past, Thomas is (what I asume) the guiding light and therefore a force of good in the story, meaning helping a mad fool save his love, making it right where Thomas himself failed.
The "failure of Thomas" keeps coming up as well at the end.

Why's Barbara the antagonist? Pick and choose. Toxic relationship, love/hate, the emotions of the moment Thomas killed her.

Had to get this off of my chest, I know I am 11 years late.

[The.Spaz.]

If you remove the supernatural aspects and look at Zane's situation from a cynical and reductive angle then its pretty much a murder/suicide. Either Zane went insane, killed his love and then dived into the lake with her corpse or maybe Barbara ended up succumbing to some wasting sickness (Alzheimer, cancer etc) that changed her personality over time and Zane couldn't stand to see her wasting away and decided to end it all. The only thing is that time and history have pretty much forgotten about their existence. Besides that one lady and a shoe box full of Zane's works, no one remember the event at all. People remember the lodge at the center of the lake but attribute it to being destroyed by an earth quake.

Also Alice and Barbara's situation are not the same. Barbara was possessed by the darkness from which there is no coming back where as Alice was imprisoned by it to use as leverage against Alan to keep writing. In the end Alan jumps into the lake and Alice swims back out to the surface having being saved. She is mentioned quite frequently in the following DLC in control as well as AW2.

[SgtHorton]

Thomas Zane was uber god, he ate Alan Wake and they become one, he is now eating more beings like Mr Scratch and Alice

[Hawk]

Originally posted by The.Spaz.:

If you remove the supernatural aspects and look at Zane's situation from a cynical and reductive angle then its pretty much a murder/suicide. Either Zane went insane, killed his love and then dived into the lake with her corpse or maybe Barbara ended up succumbing to some wasting sickness (Alzheimer, cancer etc) that changed her personality over time and Zane couldn't stand to see her wasting away and decided to end it all. The only thing is that time and history have pretty much forgotten about their existence. Besides that one lady and a shoe box full of Zane's works, no one remember the event at all. People remember the lodge at the center of the lake but attribute it to being destroyed by an earth quake.

Also Alice and Barbara's situation are not the same. Barbara was possessed by the darkness from which there is no coming back where as Alice was imprisoned by it to use as leverage against Alan to keep writing. In the end Alan jumps into the lake and Alice swims back out to the surface having being saved. She is mentioned quite frequently in the following DLC in control as well as AW2.

To clarify: By "their situations are the same" I meant their situations in regards to actual reality, if we're assuming Alan Wake is a fictional character Thomas Zane invented. I remember there being some mention/suggestion of Barbara being dead, that is, Thomas' lover having drowned, in a similar manner to Alice, but I played this game over the past 1 1/2 week, so I might misremember small details.

Honestly, now that you mention it, Alice being constantly portrayed as this leverage to make him write could also hold some meaning in regard to Alan's/Thomas' psyche.

I forgot about the meaning of Diver's Isle not being there in Alan's story anymore. I wonder if that could imply it being forgotten like you said, or Thomas' intend to hide it all.

[Hawk]

Wait, does AW2 outright confirm Alice and there for Alan is real? I mean, that would crush any chance of what we're talking about being real.

[Dr.Abscondus]

Barbara Jagger was possessed by the Dark Presence after she drowned in Cauldron Lake. Zane, using his writer powers, wrote her back to life but realized after she came back that it wasn't her anymore. He tied her to a chair and cut out her heart, but she did not die. He then took her back to the bottom of the lake wearing his diving suit, but died in the process. There she remained until Wake showed up. At the end Wake put the clicker into the hole where her heart had been thus defeating the Dark Presence, but only for 13 years since it's back in Alan Wake 2.

[The.Spaz.]

Originally posted by Hawk:

Wait, does AW2 outright confirm Alice and there for Alan is real? I mean, that would crush any chance of what we're talking about being real.

I thought you were just posing a hypothetical question. Reality is subjective but as far as the story is concerned both Alan and Alice were real people that existed with in the world. Their existence is confirmed in priod DLCs related to the first game as well as another game called Control. If you have not played Control yet, it's def worth a shot as it details the exploits of a secret government agency called the Federal Bureau of Control (FBC) that specializes in paranormal events. In it, you will come across a DLC that ties into Alan Wake as well as additional information the details the aftermath of the events in Brightfalls. The FBC interviews Alice where she claims that she is being haunted by a menacing apparition that looks like Alan in their old NY apartment. Weather if it's Alan reaching out for help or Mr. Scratch tormenting her is a guess but the point is that the disappearance of Alan Wake is a cold case that was never solved until 13 years later when an FBI agent named Saga Anderson was sent down to investigate a homicide related to a cult.

Anyway, as I said before reality is subjective and sometimes I wonder if the "reality" that Alan perceives to be the real world is really real or not. Consider how real can a world be if you are able to insert events into existence just by writing it into a story? What are the chances that the real world is just another version of the Dark Place that Alan is lost in? Like a Yin and Yang, a stage that is active during production and completely dark and abandoned when not in use. What if after the car accident Alan woke up in a different reality... a fictional world that is detailed by his writing and every step he makes from there on. What if he is dead and this some Jacob's Ladder like attempt from his mind to preserve his sanity?

[The.Spaz.]

Originally posted by Hawk:

Originally posted by The.Spaz.:

If you remove the supernatural aspects and look at Zane's situation from a cynical and reductive angle then its pretty much a murder/suicide. Either Zane went insane, killed his love and then dived into the lake with her corpse or maybe Barbara ended up succumbing to some wasting sickness (Alzheimer, cancer etc) that changed her personality over time and Zane couldn't stand to see her wasting away and decided to end it all. The only thing is that time and history have pretty much forgotten about their existence. Besides that one lady and a shoe box full of Zane's works, no one remember the event at all. People remember the lodge at the center of the lake but attribute it to being destroyed by an earth quake.

Also Alice and Barbara's situation are not the same. Barbara was possessed by the darkness from which there is no coming back where as Alice was imprisoned by it to use as leverage against Alan to keep writing. In the end Alan jumps into the lake and Alice swims back out to the surface having being saved. She is mentioned quite frequently in the following DLC in control as well as AW2.

To clarify: By "their situations are the same" I meant their situations in regards to actual reality, if we're assuming Alan Wake is a fictional character Thomas Zane invented. I remember there being some mention/suggestion of Barbara being dead, that is, Thomas' lover having drowned, in a similar manner to Alice, but I played this game over the past 1 1/2 week, so I might misremember small details.

Honestly, now that you mention it, Alice being constantly portrayed as this leverage to make him write could also hold some meaning in regard to Alan's/Thomas' psyche.

I forgot about the meaning of Diver's Isle not being there in Alan's story anymore. I wonder if that could imply it being forgotten like you said, or Thomas' intend to hide it all.

I don't think Zane erased the island but removed all association with him. When Zane dived into the that lake for the final time, there was also a huge earthquake that buried the lodge. The rest of the details were filled by history and time.

[Hawk]

That just explains literally everything to me, and I mean both the last responses.
Damn it, I was really into the whole perhaps "everyone is just sick in their heads" approach..
Still a good story. I was on the fence about Control, but I'll at least give it a shot if it ties into this game. Dunno if I want to play Wake 2 or just watch what's going to happen yet.

Originally posted by The.Spaz.:

Originally posted by Hawk:

Wait, does AW2 outright confirm Alice and there for Alan is real? I mean, that would crush any chance of what we're talking about being real.

I thought you were just posing a hypothetical question. Reality is subjective but as far as the story is concerned both Alan and Alice were real people that existed with in the world. Their existence is confirmed in priod DLCs related to the first game as well as another game called Control. If you have not played Control yet, it's def worth a shot as it details the exploits of a secret government agency called the Federal Bureau of Control (FBC) that specializes in paranormal events. In it, you will come across a DLC that ties into Alan Wake as well as additional information the details the aftermath of the events in Brightfalls. The FBC interviews Alice where she claims that she is being haunted by a menacing apparition that looks like Alan in their old NY apartment. Weather if it's Alan reaching out for help or Mr. Scratch tormenting her is a guess but the point is that the disappearance of Alan Wake is a cold case that was never solved until 13 years later when an FBI agent named Saga Anderson was sent down to investigate a homicide related to a cult.

Anyway, as I said before reality is subjective and sometimes I wonder if the "reality" that Alan perceives to be the real world is really real or not. Consider how real can a world be if you are able to insert events into existence just by writing it into a story? What are the chances that the real world is just another version of the Dark Place that Alan is lost in? Like a Yin and Yang, a stage that is active during production and completely dark and abandoned when not in use. What if after the car accident Alan woke up in a different reality... a fictional world that is detailed by his writing and every step he makes from there on. What if he is dead and this some Jacob's Ladder like attempt from his mind to preserve his sanity?

Second paragraph isn't quite clear to me. The follow-ups, both DLC and games, clarify that the supernatural was real, don't they? You make it sound like there's still a possibility that all of it is in his head, or it's some sort of purgatory situation. Doesn't Control as well as Wake 2 specifically confirm everything, if it's about outsiders looking into the whole Brightfalls situation?

[The.Spaz.]

Originally posted by Hawk:

That just explains literally everything to me, and I mean both the last responses.
Damn it, I was really into the whole perhaps "everyone is just sick in their heads" approach..
Still a good story. I was on the fence about Control, but I'll at least give it a shot if it ties into this game. Dunno if I want to play Wake 2 or just watch what's going to happen yet.

Originally posted by The.Spaz.:

I thought you were just posing a hypothetical question. Reality is subjective but as far as the story is concerned both Alan and Alice were real people that existed with in the world. Their existence is confirmed in priod DLCs related to the first game as well as another game called Control. If you have not played Control yet, it's def worth a shot as it details the exploits of a secret government agency called the Federal Bureau of Control (FBC) that specializes in paranormal events. In it, you will come across a DLC that ties into Alan Wake as well as additional information the details the aftermath of the events in Brightfalls. The FBC interviews Alice where she claims that she is being haunted by a menacing apparition that looks like Alan in their old NY apartment. Weather if it's Alan reaching out for help or Mr. Scratch tormenting her is a guess but the point is that the disappearance of Alan Wake is a cold case that was never solved until 13 years later when an FBI agent named Saga Anderson was sent down to investigate a homicide related to a cult.

Anyway, as I said before reality is subjective and sometimes I wonder if the "reality" that Alan perceives to be the real world is really real or not. Consider how real can a world be if you are able to insert events into existence just by writing it into a story? What are the chances that the real world is just another version of the Dark Place that Alan is lost in? Like a Yin and Yang, a stage that is active during production and completely dark and abandoned when not in use. What if after the car accident Alan woke up in a different reality... a fictional world that is detailed by his writing and every step he makes from there on. What if he is dead and this some Jacob's Ladder like attempt from his mind to preserve his sanity?

Second paragraph isn't quite clear to me. The follow-ups, both DLC and games, clarify that the supernatural was real, don't they? You make it sound like there's still a possibility that all of it is in his head, or it's some sort of purgatory situation. Doesn't Control as well as Wake 2 specifically confirm everything, if it's about outsiders looking into the whole Brightfalls situation?

Yeah I forgot to delete that last bit. I stepped out for a smoke and got to rambling. Just felt like Alan broke through a 4th wall and is slowly realizing he (and the world) might be a character in someone's book. But don't worry about it, you are right the supernatural exists in the world of Alan Wake.

[GodisanAtheist]

If a writer is writing things into existence,.like god, then the things that he is writing into existence can think they're real and can confirm their reality when they are infact something dreamt up my Alan Wake (himself a creation of Zane).

I mean, Alan Wake thinks he is real, has memories and a whole life, but the shoebox and the clicker show that even though he thinks he is real, he's really been written by Zane.