Oathbreaking

[LazerFruit [The9]]

Got oath breaker from sneak attacking hostile goblins at blighted village. Is that really how the mechanic is supposed to work?

[.Master Jiren, The Strongest]

Originally posted by NixAhmose:

Originally posted by dulany67:

Honestly, I've looked a bit on the net, and I can't find anything that says OoD paladins can't sneak up on their enemies.

So if I'm wrong please cite. Not about honor or your version of it, but actual mechanics that lead to a fallen paladin. D&D Beyond must have something? WotC supplements?

Its not directly stated, but its stated that Oath Paladins must not lie or cheat and should always try to show mercy to their enemies and solve situations with the least amount of violence when possible.

So sneaking attacking an unaware enemy that isn't actively hostile to you yet can be considered a violation of your oath since a) sneak attacks can be considered a form of cheating, b) you gave your enemy no opportunity to surrender, and c) you immediately jumped to violence when hypothetically speaking you still could have tried talking them down.

does this mean you can break your oath by simply choosing 'deception' as a dialogue option? If true, they really should include popups that say "this will break your oath" because if im presented an option it seems to me im allowed to do such an option, but an Oath is such a powerful thing a Paladin would never even consider such an action normally and would thus require the player to actively *choose* to do it. So I think the best way to represent that is a "are you sure you want to do this?" box, which could be disabled in options. Or put an evil black skull next to options that would result in an oathbreak, but that would only work in dialogue and im not sure if there are dialogue options that break an oath.

It seems like maybe if they release some of the less goody goody subclasses people wont even bother with the good paladins and everyoen will just play a vengeance paladin because then they wont have to worry so much about breaking oaths. it really is a system that is very brave but probably a mistake.

[NixAhmose]

Originally posted by Jiren, The Strongest:

does this mean you can break your oath by simply choosing 'deception' as a dialogue option?

Yep. The first oath of an Oath of Devotion Paladin is that you can never lie to the point where your word should be all that anyone needs to trust your promises.

While I'm not sure I agree that they need to tag all Oathbreaking dialogue options, they should definitely do more to explain to people what exactly their oaths are and how breaking them works.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Jiren, The Strongest:

does this mean you can break your oath by simply choosing 'deception' as a dialogue option? If true, they really should include popups that say "this will break your oath" because if im presented an option it seems to me im allowed to do such an option, but an Oath is such a powerful thing a Paladin would never even consider such an action normally and would thus require the player to actively *choose* to do it.

Of course you're 'allowed' to do it... Doesn't mean you 'should' do it.

Don't blame Larian's programming for your lack of self control. Being a Paladin isn't about taking the easy path.

The options that lead to oath breaking are presented, because without them, violating your oath would be a non-issue.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by Jiren, The Strongest:

does this mean you can break your oath by simply choosing 'deception' as a dialogue option? If true, they really should include popups that say "this will break your oath" because if im presented an option it seems to me im allowed to do such an option, but an Oath is such a powerful thing a Paladin would never even consider such an action normally and would thus require the player to actively *choose* to do it.

I feel like the struggle is the point, and labeling dialogue options as such would be too intrusive.

Better to just have a handy reference ingame on the conversation UI that reminds you of your tenets, tbh.

[dolby]

Originally posted by NixAhmose:

Originally posted by Jiren, The Strongest:

does this mean you can break your oath by simply choosing 'deception' as a dialogue option?

Yep. The first oath of an Oath of Devotion Paladin is that you can never lie to the point where your word should be all that anyone needs to trust your promises.

While I'm not sure I agree that they need to tag all Oathbreaking dialogue options, they should definitely do more to explain to people what exactly their oaths are and how breaking them works.

Well sneak attacking and lying are not evil or dishonorable actions by themselfs the end goal is what matter you can save whole city of kids by saying a small lie or sneak attack someone. IF you sneak attack someone that doesn't mean they can't defend themselfs or surrender or that you can't show marcy. it just means you use the best tool for the job. same as using the best weapon.

YOu said that it doesn't matter that there are no rules about sneak attacks but that's not true at all you need to have rules.

it's called code of honor. it set by the members of that honor group of peers you cant have it with out that. without those someone can say that it's dishonrable to kill someone with a bow cos you were not in hand to hand combat or whatever the case may be some one else can say spells are dishonorable...

The only time this thing would play out like you say it does is when you have a rule i'll shall not kill or lie at all no matter what.

The second that is not the case and is changed it becomes a gray area. For the greater good and all that good stuff. Like i said before it literally says on tab when you pick subclass or hover over it in game.

[Trap Queen 85]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by NixAhmose:

They aren't really an army though.

They most certainly are. You're only counting the goblins based on them specifically, but remember who else they have with them.

At least one drow and hobgoblin stationed at the camp to serve as war bosses.

Several ogre mercenaries.

Several giant spiders and worgs they've tamed to act as war beasts.

An entire company of Zhentarim traders supplying them with goods.

And even a few people from other races who are cultists of the Absolute.

Suffice it to say, they're pretty well established as a fighting force. And it's not as if druids are exactly push overs... not when you're fighting them in the uncharted wilderness where they have every possible advantage on their side.

I don't see them as a war party. They lack organization. Raiding party yes, war no. If it was a war party who are they at war with exactly? Their objective is to find and retrieve any beings associated with the Nautiloid, it's not to defeat a particular enemy. Even with the Grove I gathered that the attack was to get more information on what they are looking for [the artifact] which is exactly why they were torturing people for information and had Halsin captured. It was not to destroy the grove just because.

[dolby]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by dolby:

if angels can turn evil there is no reason a devil can't turn good an even if that doesn't happen. You can always just drop helmet of opposite alignment on them. a true class item from Bladur's gate.

Angels don't just randomly decide to become evil on their own. The corruption sets in after being subjected to either extreme trauma over a long period of time, or they spend too much time down in the lower planes and absorb the evil energies that permeate there.

Just as Devils are made from the metaphysical essence of what it means to be lawful evil, so too are Angels made from the metaphysical essence of what it means to be lawful good. It is against the Angel's very nature to be anything other than lawful good. Which is why when they deviate from it, they cease to exist as Angels and transform into something else.

Like, say, changing from an Angel to a Devil.

Zariel?? she chose to join. it was that or defeat .... she joined to battle demons on her own terms, forever. the price for that was join Asmodeus as an archdevil and rule Avernus.

[Exarch of Justice]

So im reading alot of post about Oath Breaking situations that I did not get at all on my playthrough. However I was playing as Oath of the Ancient. I'm wondering were you guys playing as Oath of Devotion by any chance? Because I only got Oath Breaking 2 times in my playthrough. Once in the blighted village after I managed to intimidate the ambushing goblins and accidently made em aggressive while exploring I killed one of em and it gave me Oathbreaking... the second time was after I used the Necromantic Staff of the Hag to ressurect Maryna's husband with it...wich is a duuh situation for Oath of the Ancient I know but it came up so rarely I never even thought about it before hindsight.

Other then that I was allowed to lie as long as I had noble ulterior motives ..like The tieflings with Laezel has a (Paladin) Deception option.. and even then I was never Oath Breaking for lying at least from the option I picked.

Edit: I never used sneaking to start a fight unless the creature were already Hostile aka Red. I did not find this made my fights harder in the least. I usually walked to certain npcs and picked the Paladin option in dialogue to start combat.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by dolby:

Zariel?? she chose to join. it was that or defeat .... she joined to battle demons on her own terms, forever. the price for that was join Asmodeus as an archdevil and rule Avernus.

And before taking that deal, she was betrayed by the humans that she had lead into the Abyss to fight with her. She overestimated the strength and courage of her allies, only to have them break ranks and succumb to panic when they met the true horrors of the lower planes.

This resulted in her being overwhelmed and defeated by the demons, having to be saved by the forces of Hell, who nursed her back to health.

After joining Asmodeus, Zariel pretty much became the Doom Slayer, and focused all of her energy on slaughtering as many demons as possible. Not harvesting and torturing souls to sustain Hell's infrastructure.

One of the endings to Descent into Avernus can even result in you reuniting Zariel with the holy blade she lost in her initial assault and restoring her angelic status.

[KOHb]

Oh by the way just remembered the ex paladin Aribeth de Tylmarande from neverwinter nights.
A great sample of oath breaking.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Criminal Horse:

Oh by the way just remembered the ex paladin Aribeth de Tylmarande from neverwinter nights.
A great sample of oath breaking.

If I recall correctly, she ends up becoming a Blackguard near the end of the game.

Though in her defense, she was consumed with grief after Lord Neverwinter threw her husband under the bus to appease a blood thirsty mob, even when they both knew full well that he was most likely innocent and had no idea about his involvement in spreading the plague.

What Neverwinter did to him was not true justice. It was a human (well, half-elven) sacrifice meant to quell the people's blood lust.

[KOHb]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

If I recall correctly, she ends up becoming a Blackguard near the end of the game.

Though in her defense, she was consumed with grief after Lord Neverwinter threw her husband under the bus to appease a blood thirsty mob, even when they both knew full well that he was most likely innocent and had no idea about his involvement in spreading the plague.

What Neverwinter did to him was not true justice. It was a human (well, half-elven) sacrifice meant to quell the people's blood lust.

Reasons does not matter for pala.

Also if I remember it right in Hordes of Underdark she could be redeemed as paladin of Tyr or remain Blackguard. Depending on choice.

Anyway it's a quite iconic character. No one is perfect.

[dulany67]

Originally posted by Criminal Horse:

Reasons does not matter for pala.

Do they not?

I know that WotC is de-emphasizing alignment, but have you guys considered what alignment your paladin would be as played by what I've read here? You guys are basically saying that the oath is more important than the greater good. That is pretty much the definition of Lawful Evil. The paladin will adhere to the tenets of his oath- benefiting himself- while risking the greater good.

[KOHb]

Originally posted by dulany67:

Do they not?

I know that WotC is de-emphasizing alignment, but have you guys considered what alignment your paladin would be as played by what I've read here? You guys are basically saying that the oath is more important than the greater good. That is pretty much the definition of Lawful Evil. The paladin will adhere to the tenets of his oath- benefiting himself- while risking the greater good.

Quite extreme point of view, but I understand it.
Good IMO is quite relevant. Zealous fanatic (which paladins are in common) could see 'the good' their way.
Extremist muslims as example are sure that they are doing good deeds.

p.s. And still Aribeth was a bаdаss great paladin character with great dramaturgy and very hot posters :P

[Rava]

Originally posted by dolby:

Originally posted by Rylock:

Your a paladin not a rogue stop acting like one

not yet cos we have no muticlassing... anyway if this is true its just bad...

gonna hve to do a paly playthough to see it when i'm done with bard

gonna need a reminder for your name, see in the future if you complain if your Pally/Rogue drops its Oath via shanking people in their sleep