The queerness is lore-accurate and Larian's vision

[Wizard College Dropout]

Ed Greenwood, the creator of the Forgotten Realms setting: "Folks, the Realms have ALWAYS had characters (mortals and deities) who crossdressed, changed gender (and not just to sneak past guards in an adventure, by way of shapeshifting magic or illusions), were actively bisexual, and openly gay. So it has always been there, and is an integral part of the Realms. Sheesh. The world has REAL problems, people. Telling someone else how to behave in bed (or dress, or what jobs they can hold down) isn't one of them. Or shouldn't be."

And Larian's writers did an interview with Gayming Magazine talking about how important the queerness of the game was to them. "DnD is inherently driven by player imagination, and in the tabletop edition, players are given the freedom to flirt and fall in love as they please. This is something we wanted to replicate as far as possible, so while it’s an equally valid creative approach for romance-able characters to come with their own set preferences, the pansexuality of our origin characters not only feels true to them and their values, but also to the spirit of imaginative self-expression and self-exploration that lies at the heart of DnD. Speaking for myself, I can say that video games (and role-playing games in particular) were some of the first places I found a space to quietly express this side of my own identity, and as a result were also the first places I experienced acceptance of this. I hope our game offers others that same feeling for our players of being seen and loved for exactly who they are."

The game is queer because they wanted it to be queer and it's lore accurate to the setting, the creator of which says to get over yourself. Either accept the game for what Larian wanted it to be or move on to a different one.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Matunus:

Eilistraee is mentioned in various books from 2nd Edition onwards. Qilue Veladorn, one of the Seven Sisters is her chosen in addition to being a chosen of Mystra. Eilistraee has been part of Forgotten Realms canon for a very long time now. They killed her during 4th Edition but quickly brought her back in 5th. There are surface drow in Silverymoon, Waterdeep and Aglarond. There are also some surface drow in Dambrath, but they are not Eilistraee worshipers.

Are those, by any chance, the cities full of Drow that materialized out of thin, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ air one day, because they were just using highly advanced illusion magic to conceal their presence up till now?

Yeah, I refuse to accept the existence of those retcons.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

It would, notably, be an odd decision, since even a very few fiends, creatures literally made of evil, have changed alignments.

The major detail to bare in mind there is that they did not remain fiends after changing their alignment. Or at least, they did not remain the same type of fiend.

Graz'zt used to be an Arch Devil, before he defected to the Abyss and became a Demon Lord.

So even if they are capable of changing their alignment, it does not contradict the established lore that ALL Devils are LE, just as ALL demons are CE and all Daemons are NE. If they cease to be those alignments, they cease to exist as that classification.

That can happen but it's not a given. Fall From Grace in Planescape Torment is Lawful Neutral but she's still a succubus.
But that's really besides the point; whatever happens to them afterwards the very fact that a fiend can reject the alignment that it is literally physically made of would make the idea that it is impossible a Mind Flayer to not be evil rather strange.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Matunus:

Eilistraee is mentioned in various books from 2nd Edition onwards. Qilue Veladorn, one of the Seven Sisters is her chosen in addition to being a chosen of Mystra. Eilistraee has been part of Forgotten Realms canon for a very long time now. They killed her during 4th Edition but quickly brought her back in 5th. There are surface drow in Silverymoon, Waterdeep and Aglarond. There are also some surface drow in Dambrath, but they are not Eilistraee worshipers.

Are those, by any chance, the cities full of Drow that materialized out of thin, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ air one day, because they were just using highly advanced illusion magic to conceal their presence up till now?

Yeah, I refuse to accept the existence of those retcons.

Those aren't retcons, those are advancement in the metaplot. Due in no small part to the actions of Qilue and Drizzt people on the surface, at least in major cities that get more news, warmed up to idea of non-evil drow so the church of Eilistraee became more open.
Also you can't use official lore to support your case while ignoring official lore that contradicts you.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

BG3 isn't queer enough.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

Those aren't retcons, those are advancement in the metaplot. Due in no small part to the actions of Qilue and Drizzt people on the surface, at least in major cities that get more news, warmed up to idea of non-evil drow so the church of Eilistraee became more open.
Also you can't use official lore to support your case while ignoring official lore that contradicts you.

Pathfinder's goblins discovering that integrating with civilization was a better alternative than trying to face a hoard of undead by themselves was an advancement of the metaplot.


The sudden emergence of a bunch of drow populated cities just spawning on the surface over night, and claiming they never pledged allegiance to the spider queen is WotC's ham fisted attempt at shoe horning in drow as a playable option.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

Those aren't retcons, those are advancement in the metaplot. Due in no small part to the actions of Qilue and Drizzt people on the surface, at least in major cities that get more news, warmed up to idea of non-evil drow so the church of Eilistraee became more open.
Also you can't use official lore to support your case while ignoring official lore that contradicts you.

Pathfinder's goblins discovering that integrating with civilization was a better alternative than trying to face a hoard of undead by themselves was an advancement of the metaplot.


The sudden emergence of a bunch of drow populated cities just spawning on the surface over night, and claiming they never pledged allegiance to the spider queen is WotC's ham fisted attempt at shoe horning in drow as a playable option.

There was no "sudden emergence of a bunch of drow populated cities." What there was and is is growing drow populations in the more accepting parts of the Realms. Over the span of a century, which not even an elf would call "sudden."

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

There was no "sudden emergence of a bunch of drow populated cities." What there was and is is growing drow populations in the more accepting parts of the Realms. Over the span of a century, which not even an elf would call "sudden."

It takes them a century before they're officially recognized as a mature adult within their society. From an elf's perspective, their appearance happened less than a generation ago.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

There was no "sudden emergence of a bunch of drow populated cities." What there was and is is growing drow populations in the more accepting parts of the Realms. Over the span of a century, which not even an elf would call "sudden."

It takes them a century before they're officially recognized as a mature adult within their society. From an elf's perspective, their appearance happened less than a generation ago.

Think how much as changed in a single generation in the real world, particularly in regards to the acceptance of minorities.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Originally posted by Skaraok:

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

True but monsters are as presented elsewhere unless Greenwood contradicts it. And I've yet to see a quote of Greenwood weighing in on the possibility of non-evil Mind Flayers. Not saying there is no such quote, just that I haven't it.
It would, notably, be an odd decision, since even a very few fiends, creatures literally made of evil, have changed alignments.

He doth do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6toc1Aaq8n0

Great video and I mean that but it didn't really conclusively answer the possibility of non-evil illithids one way or another. Although that bit about befriending the monster would imply he's in favour.

[[TG] zac]

And for every 1 person like that in forgotten realms there are legions of people who either don't know magic, cant afford magical items or would just consider all kinds of weird.

Before the last few years there weren't even any people mentioned who would want to do that in the lore.
Almost like Wizards does whatever it thinks is the new thing to keep some people's attention.

[[TG] zac]

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

The major detail to bare in mind there is that they did not remain fiends after changing their alignment. Or at least, they did not remain the same type of fiend.

Graz'zt used to be an Arch Devil, before he defected to the Abyss and became a Demon Lord.

So even if they are capable of changing their alignment, it does not contradict the established lore that ALL Devils are LE, just as ALL demons are CE and all Daemons are NE. If they cease to be those alignments, they cease to exist as that classification.

That can happen but it's not a given. Fall From Grace in Planescape Torment is Lawful Neutral but she's still a succubus.
But that's really besides the point; whatever happens to them afterwards the very fact that a fiend can reject the alignment that it is literally physically made of would make the idea that it is impossible a Mind Flayer to not be evil rather strange.

They may not want to be evil but the fact they have to eat the brains of sentient humanoids kinda forces them to either be evil or starve to death unless they work out some way of working as an executioner for a humanoid settlement of sufficient size.

And even then its questionable.

[Matunus]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Matunus:

Eilistraee is mentioned in various books from 2nd Edition onwards. Qilue Veladorn, one of the Seven Sisters is her chosen in addition to being a chosen of Mystra. Eilistraee has been part of Forgotten Realms canon for a very long time now. They killed her during 4th Edition but quickly brought her back in 5th. There are surface drow in Silverymoon, Waterdeep and Aglarond. There are also some surface drow in Dambrath, but they are not Eilistraee worshipers.

Are those, by any chance, the cities full of Drow that materialized out of thin, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ air one day, because they were just using highly advanced illusion magic to conceal their presence up till now?

Yeah, I refuse to accept the existence of those retcons.

I have a book from 1991 that has articles on Eilistraee. Talking about recons in this context is a special kind of stupid. These cities already had those drow communities then. Qilue Veladorn was in Waterdeep back then.
There are still drow communities in these cities, even though they are smaller in the present than they were 2e and 3e.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by TG zac:

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

That can happen but it's not a given. Fall From Grace in Planescape Torment is Lawful Neutral but she's still a succubus.
But that's really besides the point; whatever happens to them afterwards the very fact that a fiend can reject the alignment that it is literally physically made of would make the idea that it is impossible a Mind Flayer to not be evil rather strange.

They may not want to be evil but the fact they have to eat the brains of sentient humanoids kinda forces them to either be evil or starve to death unless they work out some way of working as an executioner for a humanoid settlement of sufficient size.

And even then its questionable.

It's a common misconception to paint predators as evil - particularly when one is the target of said predation.

In fact, it could be argued that mindflayers are not evil because they eat brains, they are after all only doing it to survive.

They may be evil for other reasons (such as enslaving entire races), but certainly not for consuming the only food source that will sustain them.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Cassandra:

It's a common misconception to paint predators as evil - particularly when one is the target of said predation.

In fact, it could be argued that mindflayers are not evil because they eat brains, they are after all only doing it to survive.

They may be evil for other reasons (such as enslaving entire races), but certainly not for consuming the only food source that will sustain them.

Not to mention that if they're restricting their diet to people whom nobody will miss, then pickings aren't exactly slim in the Underdark.

However, we're ignoring the fact that while Illithids may be intelligent, they are also soulless. They have no capacity to empathize with other creatures, so anything they do is entirely motivated by their own self interest, or is based on the most cold and calculated form of logic.

I find it frustrating that humanity constantly assumes being intelligent makes you more prone to compassion and cooperation. When from what we've often seen, the more intelligent somebody is, the more disconnected they become from society. And with an intelligence score of 20, the Illithid are considered to be super geniuses.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

Great video and I mean that but it didn't really conclusively answer the possibility of non-evil illithids one way or another. Although that bit about befriending the monster would imply he's in favour.

People were in favor of befriending the Owlbear Cub, until they returned to camp and found it eating the dog.

(this is a joke about early access content)