About Jergal and his 3 buddies.

[Grumpy]

For the lore connoisseurs.

I know the big 3 made a pact with Jergal but do we know the content of it?

What does Jergal gain from giving the big 3 their divine status ?

[Lil Grandpa]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by (Poot) Lil Grandpa:

I never understood the nature of "balance" as a whole. Having evil in the world is a net negative.

Mmmm, not in the case of D&D. In fact, the existence of Hell and its devils is regarded as being a necessary evil, because when they aren't focusing on trying to collect as many souls as possible, they're waging an endless war against the demons of the Abyss.

Demons are a much, much worse threat to the multiverse than devils, and there seems to be an infinite horde of them trying to spill out from the Abyss at any given time.

Devils are the first line of defense keeping these psychopaths from overrunning the planes and destroying everything. So even though the gods do not approve of what Asmodeus is doing, they also recognize that without his help, ♥♥♥♥ would hit the fan.

I dunno dude. If I were Ao, I would just replace hell with planetars and solars and get rid of that wasteland entirely.

[Banelord]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Ok, conspiracy theory time.

Jergal is actually the secret avatar of Ao.

Prove me wrong.

In BG3, Jergal serves as a ressurectionist for the protagonist character, and as means for Larians writers to provide a redemprtion arc as Larian can not really do evil, they can only write toxic jerks they consider to be redeemable no matter how many they killed during their "jerk" phase and write it off to youth and "bad blood", much like the liberal judges. Luckily, there are endings albeit unpolished (again due to the said fact that Larian have rpoblems with writing true organized evil), to counter this.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Banelord:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Ok, conspiracy theory time.

Jergal is actually the secret avatar of Ao.

Prove me wrong.

In BG3, Jergal serves as a ressurectionist for the protagonist character, and as means for Larians writers to provide a redemprtion arc as Larian can not really do evil, they can only write toxic jerks they consider to be redeemable no matter how many they killed during their "jerk" phase and write it off to youth and "bad blood", much like the liberal judges. Luckily, there are endings albeit unpolished (again due to the said fact that Larian have rpoblems with writing true organized evil), to counter this.

Are you high on bath salts?

[Banelord]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Originally posted by Banelord:

In BG3, Jergal serves as a ressurectionist for the protagonist character, and as means for Larians writers to provide a redemprtion arc as Larian can not really do evil, they can only write toxic jerks they consider to be redeemable no matter how many they killed during their "jerk" phase and write it off to youth and "bad blood", much like the liberal judges. Luckily, there are endings albeit unpolished (again due to the said fact that Larian have rpoblems with writing true organized evil), to counter this.

Are you high on bath salts?

Explain

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by (Poot) Lil Grandpa:

I dunno dude. If I were Ao, I would just replace hell with planetars and solars and get rid of that wasteland entirely.

That's what they tried... at first...

But after an unknown period of time fighting against the endless tide of demons, the celestials became corrupted by the essence of the Abyss and transformed into devils.

-------------------

The alignment spectrum within D&D and Pathfinder are not social constructs meant to apply labels to people's psychological profiles. They are metaphysical forces of nature that have very real and tangible effects upon their environment. The outer planes are literally made out of this very essence.

The Abyss is the plane of Chaotic Evil, and anybody who spends an extended period of time there will begin to absorb that essence and become evil as well, regardless of what alignment they were before. This is how the armies of heaven became corrupted after fighting there for so long.

The gods are not happy with the fact that Hell exists, or that Asmodeus and his devils are torturing the souls of their fallen worshipers. But if they weren't down there to keep the demons occupied, they would have overrun the multiverse by now.

As such, the gods can do little more than grit their teeth and allow Asmodeus to go about his business. The alternative being much worse.

[Banelord]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

The alignment spectrum within D&D and Pathfinder are not social constructs meant to apply labels to people's psychological profiles. They are metaphysical forces of nature that have very real and tangible effects upon their environment. The outer planes are literally made out of this very essence.

Therefore, it was a mistake of the Wotc, one of many, to remove alignment. It hurt the lore.

[retsam1]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Ok, conspiracy theory time.

Jergal is actually the secret avatar of Ao.

Prove me wrong.

Can't disprove or prove something that Wizards of the Coast hasn't defined regarding lore of course. That's a bit silly. However:

1. From the wiki:

The Second Sundering

Great stories remain to be told in this era but they are not the tales of gods and god-like beings. They are the tales of mortal heroes, taking a stand to preserve the world they love.

— The word of Ao by the end of the Era of Upheaval.
It was not known how long Ao expected the warring of the gods to last, but nonetheless in 1482 DR, he began the Second Sundering, as a way to restore the worlds of Toril and Abeir after the ravages of the Spellplague. During the Second Sundering, Ao recreated and rewrote the Tablets of Fate, inscribing the names and purposes of the gods and primordials he chose to serve in a new, inclusive divine reality.

By default, since he creates the reality everything falls under that purview.

2. Lord AO does not have an alignment in regards to dnd terms intentionally. Above it if you will. His plot device function is to set forth the game board and let the pieces and players roll as they may, so to speak. He only gets involved when something alters those rules.

Better put, he's just a plot device by the company when they want to re-up the world and change things so that they can keep things new and marketable, really. When you escalate mortal conflicts over decades to the point in game that it becomes on divine level and have exhausted all source book, module and novel plausibility, then Forgotten realms not unlike DC or Marvel universes start to change/retcon things to suit changes.

Welcome to farmable publishing. :P

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Banelord:

Therefore, it was a mistake of the Wotc, one of many, to remove alignment. It hurt the lore.

Yup, and since Hell is the plane of Lawful Evil, that means anybody who spends a long period of time there would likewise shift towards being evil.

In fact, a decade of Hell should probably have affected Karlach's mentality by now.

[Heu, Iterum Id Feci]

Originally posted by Banelord:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

The alignment spectrum within D&D and Pathfinder are not social constructs meant to apply labels to people's psychological profiles. They are metaphysical forces of nature that have very real and tangible effects upon their environment. The outer planes are literally made out of this very essence.

Therefore, it was a mistake of the Wotc, one of many, to remove alignment. It hurt the lore.

Yes and no. Too many people considered alignment a kind of holy grail. It often led to decisions just for alignment sake, instead of people thinking about how their characters would act.
Ie even chaotic evil chars can cooperate and use/follow laws/rules, if it furthers their goals, yet many people took alignment way to literal.
Not saying completely removing it is the best solution, but the system was flawed from the very beginning...

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

The alignment spectrum within D&D and Pathfinder are not social constructs meant to apply labels to people's psychological profiles.

Yes they are.

They are metaphysical forces of nature that have very real and tangible effects upon their environment. The outer planes are literally made out of this very essence.

The Abyss is the plane of Chaotic Evil, and anybody who spends an extended period of time there will begin to absorb that essence

Sounds like a perfume commercial. Eu de Eeeeeevil.

You don't actually understand why morality, by definition, involves agency, do you?

Nothing can be "evil" by it's very nature, because morality and ethics are subjects defined by choice. If you remove choice from the equation, then you're also removing the very meaning of what it means to be 'good' or 'evil'.

The far more interesting take on the Abyss in general is that of the Oberyth being some kind of invader from another dimension, perhaps one they helped to destroy, as the Shard of Ultimate Evil (which created the Abyss as it plunged through the Astral Plane) is closely connected to their lore.

Perhaps the Shard is a piece of their universe which corrupts this one due to not belonging here.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by Banelord:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Aye oh!

aaaaayo!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=268C3N2dDYk

Ao is the deus ex machina used by the FR authors when they mess up and need to reset things. Sure, lorewise he's an overgod and has power over the other gods, but in reality he only acts when D&D fans don't like the lore changes that WotC made.

Even in the lore there are, "old ones" like Ghuanadaur who are older than Ao and possibly aren't completely under his control. However, most of them don't do much other than their jobs in FR lore, so Ao's proclamations don't really affect them.

With Jergal, I think he still has worshippers among the Shadovar, since he was a big deal Netherese god. IIRC, during 4th edition, when Thultanthar reappeared and Netheril returned, he got a power boost. I think he knows that as long as the vestiges of Netheril worship him, doesn't really need portfolios to have enough divine juice for his own needs. Thus, he's fine having other gods do his job for him.

[retsam1]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

The alignment spectrum within D&D and Pathfinder are not social constructs meant to apply labels to people's psychological profiles.

Yes they are.

They are metaphysical forces of nature that have very real and tangible effects upon their environment. The outer planes are literally made out of this very essence.

The Abyss is the plane of Chaotic Evil, and anybody who spends an extended period of time there will begin to absorb that essence

Sounds like a perfume commercial. Eu de Eeeeeevil.

You don't actually understand why morality, by definition, involves agency, do you?

Nothing can be "evil" by it's very nature, because morality and ethics are subjects defined by choice. If you remove choice from the equation, then you're also removing the very meaning of what it means to be 'good' or 'evil'.

The far more interesting take on the Abyss in general is that of the Oberyth being some kind of invader from another dimension, perhaps one they helped to destroy, as the Shard of Ultimate Evil (which created the Abyss as it plunged through the Astral Plane) is closely connected to their lore.

Perhaps the Shard is a piece of their universe which corrupts this one due to not belonging here.

Pretty fairly assessed there concerning Majora's erroneos takes on things.

[Banelord]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

The alignment spectrum within D&D and Pathfinder are not social constructs meant to apply labels to people's psychological profiles.

Yes they are.

They are metaphysical forces of nature that have very real and tangible effects upon their environment. The outer planes are literally made out of this very essence.

The Abyss is the plane of Chaotic Evil, and anybody who spends an extended period of time there will begin to absorb that essence

Sounds like a perfume commercial. Eu de Eeeeeevil.

You don't actually understand why morality, by definition, involves agency, do you?

Nothing can be "evil" by it's very nature, because morality and ethics are subjects defined by choice. If you remove choice from the equation, then you're also removing the very meaning of what it means to be 'good' or 'evil'.

The far more interesting take on the Abyss in general is that of the Oberyth being some kind of invader from another dimension, perhaps one they helped to destroy, as the Shard of Ultimate Evil (which created the Abyss as it plunged through the Astral Plane) is closely connected to their lore.

Perhaps the Shard is a piece of their universe which corrupts this one due to not belonging here.

In Dungeons & Dragons, alignment is literally a game mechanic.

It may help you rp, but do not confuse it with real world choices, ethics and morality.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Ao = Ed Greenwood.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Banelord:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Yes they are.



Sounds like a perfume commercial. Eu de Eeeeeevil.

You don't actually understand why morality, by definition, involves agency, do you?

Nothing can be "evil" by it's very nature, because morality and ethics are subjects defined by choice. If you remove choice from the equation, then you're also removing the very meaning of what it means to be 'good' or 'evil'.

The far more interesting take on the Abyss in general is that of the Oberyth being some kind of invader from another dimension, perhaps one they helped to destroy, as the Shard of Ultimate Evil (which created the Abyss as it plunged through the Astral Plane) is closely connected to their lore.

Perhaps the Shard is a piece of their universe which corrupts this one due to not belonging here.

In Dungeons & Dragons, alignment is literally a game mechanic.

It may help you rp, but do not confuse it with real world choices.

Not really, not anymore.

Getting rid of alignment was the second best thing WotC did, after getting rid of THAC0.

Alignment is dumb.