The Emperor vs Omeluum

[Metallicus]

So we are to believe that mindflayers are soulless husks that have no emotions, however, Omeluum does seem to generally be helpful and seems to be willing to go the extra mile to work the issue the PCs have. I get that some of his motivation is simply the puzzle of the PCs tadpole, but he seems to be friends with the Hobgoblin and genuinely help out.

Why do we distrust The Emperor, but trust Omeluum? Why are we willing to rescue Omeluum from his captivity? I am seeing a disconnect between these two situations.

[The_Dipl0mat]

Originally posted by Cassidy0z:

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

Yeah, I really like the take too. It's a more original way to run a redemption story than most.

It couldn't be more unoriginal. A mind flayer using logic rather than emotion. What a concept. Bruh. The better way to go is that Omeluum represents good and has morality which is exactly what I took away in my play.

Isn't the usual trope with logic over emotion that logic usually turns into some evil thing. Like "Its more logical for everyone to do something in X way as it is most efficient. Ergo I will take Y action to force them to do this"

Or, in the case of non-humans it even goes to "Humans cause too much harm, therefore it's logical to kill them all"


Omeluum goes with the logic that kindness is the most efficient and logical route towards a better life for himself in the long run

[DeMasked]

Emperor is focused on Survival and gaining Power

Omeluum is focused on Survival and gaining Knowledge which is in a way Power

They are both the same in their goals but approach it very differently. The Emperor uses manipulation or control to get what he wants while Omeluum is willing to work with others of their own free will and takes his time to learn what he wants to know in order to eventually / hopefully get what he wants.

The Emperor is already a villain in the game while with Omeluum it is possible that he may become a villain down the line should he pursue more dangerous Knowledge that can impact him negatively.

I think that the Emperor gains satisfaction in being in control while with Omeluum it is more about the pursuit of knowledge. Buuut it is suggested that the Emperor was being used by the Netherbrain while Omeluum had the magical capability of resisting it right from the get go thus the latter is always more trustworthy.

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Originally posted by The_Dipl0mat:

Originally posted by Cassidy0z:

It couldn't be more unoriginal. A mind flayer using logic rather than emotion. What a concept. Bruh. The better way to go is that Omeluum represents good and has morality which is exactly what I took away in my play.

Isn't the usual trope with logic over emotion that logic usually turns into some evil thing. Like "Its more logical for everyone to do something in X way as it is most efficient. Ergo I will take Y action to force them to do this"

Or, in the case of non-humans it even goes to "Humans cause too much harm, therefore it's logical to kill them all"


Omeluum goes with the logic that kindness is the most efficient and logical route towards a better life for himself in the long run

Not really no. Logic is a neutral characteristic not an evil one. I think it's just perceived that way because many Lawful Evil / Neutral Evil types tend to be more militaristic and logical and calculating in D&D. Also when something like a robot leans into something more logical it's not done out of evil it's done out of the fact there is no emotion involved. But yes we as humans would perceive something like that as evil.

It would definitely be unoriginal for Omeluum to lean into what his race is basically known for characteristically speaking as opposed to showing emotion, morality, compassion, etc. which would have a greater impact on the shock factor or unexpectedness of the majority of players. While I get the take that having him be non emotional and logical while still being percieved as good as something outside the norm... it isn't a good portrayal being that most people aren't going to view it in this way. Most people see things at the surface level which is exactly why Wyll had to be re-written btw.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by TaKo:

i feel like you misunderstood the result of that quest

the artificial aging and being raised to follow a code that he understands as being very inflexible and strict leads to him massacring the lodge, basically they raised a lawful good person who aged like 2 decades very quickly who turned to using violence against those who stray even a little from what they deem moral(society of brilliance are considered a true neutral faction), it was a failed and definitely unethical experiment but not really an evil one

plus omeluums main goal within the society is seemingly creating an altenative for brains so illithid can feed without having to kill other sapient folk

They did more than just accelerate the Githyanki's growth. They chained him to the floor in a secret room and subjected him to physical abuse, in an effort to 'scourge' the evil out of him. Or did you not notice the bloody shackles during your investigation of the society's clubhouse?

Originally posted by TaKo:

well, they were wrong too, the universe moved on since and omeluum isnt even the first of its kind, in fact some of its dialogue in reference to a partnership with a lich is a direct reference to another illithid also aligned with the society of brilliance

Given the state that WotC's PR is in right now, as well as how 4th edition almost killed the IP, I think it's safe to say that any 'moving on' the universe did in regards to D&D was for the worse.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Vixziค็็็็็n:

You don't know that. That would be head canon which is easy to do when we often think from a human frame of reference when thinking about other living things. But if it can be imagined then it's entirely possible to exist. I would think a creature without a soul or even a connection between a living creature and it's god (assuming it has one) could work differently in terms of the mechanics of faith, life, death, etc. than we understand it as humans and so perhaps there is no soul when it comes to such creatures.

I stated earlier that Illithids do have gods of their own, but they don't view them as idols to be worshiped. They see godhood as a challenge they must surpass, and so every ambitious Mind Flayer is trying to garner enough power that they can overthrow one of their gods and take its place.

Originally posted by Vixziค็็็็็n:

lol I did notice this as well and it's a very good point.

"Science has proven that Drow, Duergar and Hobgoblins are not inherently evil by nature, but the jury is still out on these flat nosed toads!" - Society of Arcane Brilliance, probably.

I mean, let's just ignore the fact that the distinction between Githyanki and Githzerai is CULTURAL, rather than being genetically divergent.

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

I stated earlier that Illithids do have gods of their own, but they don't view them as idols to be worshiped. They see godhood as a challenge they must surpass, and so every ambitious Mind Flayer is trying to garner enough power that they can overthrow one of their gods and take its plac

Yep and that makes a ton of sense to me especially considering they are created from the imaginative concept of Cthulu and the great old one type gods.

[TaKo]

Originally posted by DeMasked:

They are both the same in their goals

omeluum quite literally insists on letting them die in order to save ravenguard, so this is definitely not true

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Given the state that WotC's PR

which is divided between chuds whining about any progressive changes cause its profitable to grift off it and actual complaints that are actually aimed at their scummy business practices and treatment of workers so uhhh nah

a lot of changes that have been happening over the years are Good Actually, like moving away from racial alignment(and moving away from the alignment system in general really)

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

They did more than just accelerate the Githyanki's growth. They chained him to the floor in a secret room and subjected him to physical abuse, in an effort to 'scourge' the evil out of him. Or did you not notice the bloody shackles during your investigation of the society's clubhouse?

uhm... ptaris was the one doing the torture or at least most of it, and then killing the society folk when that failed to make them good according to the ptarian code

wouldnt put it past them to have done some more unethical stuff to the poor lad tho(ptaris does mention being 'hurt' but the extent of that is completely unknown)

but again, yeah this is irrelevant, the society people already see themselves as not inherently evil, but a gith is smth new to them, way more alien

and omeluum was likely not involved with this particular experiment at all(tho they dodie due to it) as their main focus is to find a way to sustain themself and other illithid without killing folk

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by TaKo:

also maybe consider that a god saying illithids lack souls is itself related to their souls being alien and unusable by him and his kind

Withers is not just any old god, he was the original God of Death, and was tasked with judging the souls of mortals before sending them off to their ultimate fate.

If anybody in the game has the authority to speak on the matter of Illithids being soulless creatures, it's him.

[Harukage]

He also gave away most of his power to the three stooges. Just because he was bored of his endless work. Speaks volumes about his mentality. He mostly does not care about anything.

[TaKo]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Withers is not just any old god, he was the original God of Death, and was tasked with judging the souls of mortals before sending them off to their ultimate fate.

not the souls of illithids tho so womp womp

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by TaKo:

which is divided between chuds whining about any progressive changes cause its profitable to grift off it and actual complaints that are actually aimed at their scummy business practices and treatment of workers so uhhh nah

Once again, 4th edition, meaning the edition that WOTC tried to implement after buying the IP, nearly killed said IP. Nobody wanted to play 4th edition, and everybody was openly mocking it.

It was 3rd party developers who managed to keep the game on life support just long enough for 5th edition to get produced, and even then, the video games continued to operate under older edition rules.

To the best of my knowledge, BG3 is the only official D&D video game that uses 5th edition rules, and it still doesn't adhere strictly to RaW.

No, don't cite Solasta as an example, Solasta isn't D&D.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Harukage:

He also gave away most of his power to the three stooges. Just because he was bored of his endless work. Speaks volumes about his mentality. He mostly does not care about anything.

He cared enough to remain on staff as an advisory role; not just to the Dead Three, but also to Kelemvor as well.

[The_Dipl0mat]

Originally posted by Vixziค็็็็็n:

Originally posted by The_Dipl0mat:

Isn't the usual trope with logic over emotion that logic usually turns into some evil thing. Like "Its more logical for everyone to do something in X way as it is most efficient. Ergo I will take Y action to force them to do this"

Or, in the case of non-humans it even goes to "Humans cause too much harm, therefore it's logical to kill them all"


Omeluum goes with the logic that kindness is the most efficient and logical route towards a better life for himself in the long run

Not really no. Logic is a neutral characteristic not an evil one. I think it's just perceived that way because many Lawful Evil / Neutral Evil types tend to be more militaristic and logical and calculating in D&D. Also when something like a robot leans into something more logical it's not done out of evil it's done out of the fact there is no emotion involved. But yes we as humans would perceive something like that as evil.

It would definitely be unoriginal for Omeluum to lean into what his race is basically known for characteristically speaking as opposed to showing emotion, morality, compassion, etc. which would have a greater impact on the shock factor or unexpectedness of the majority of players. While I get the take that having him be non emotional and logical while still being percieved as good as something outside the norm... it isn't a good portrayal being that most people aren't going to view it in this way. Most people see things at the surface level which is exactly why Wyll had to be re-written btw.

Yes, we all know logic isn't inherently good nor evil. My point is that from a narrative standpoint, the position of "logical and unemotional" is usually portrayed as militaristic and harmful from an emotional/moral point of view. Hence why I think the direction where it's logical to be good is actually a pretty nice take. Because it just, makes sense

If people are happy, there's less strife. Less you have to worry about yourself in up keeping your day to day life. We see he's fairly hands off as well, as you specifically need that bugbear fellow to essentially summon him. Showing that he doesn't stick around others all too often.

I think it's pretty cool they wrote a character in such a way where there can be genuine debate behind his motivations, and trying to make him surface level would just be boring. I imagine Wylls rewrite is because he's one of the primary characters

[Harukage]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

He cared enough to remain on staff as an advisory role; not just to the Dead Three, but also to Kelemvor as well.

You mean he still feared Ao? Right.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Harukage:

You mean he still feared Ao? Right.

I think everyone rightfully fears the guy who simultaneously ♥♥♥♥♥ slapped every god in existence (save for Helm) down to mortal status and said they could have their toys back once they retrieved his stone tablets.