Who are the good guys supposed to be?

[Ravenus]

So i play this game a bunch and i am having troubles to find out who are supposed to be a good allied party members? During early access after player backlash comunity manager told us we will find good alied party members later in the game. I finish this game to the on patch 1. After starting second playthrough after patch 3 dropped i am still searching for good alied members with no luck?

This article will contain spoilers.

Lea´zel is writen as a Lawful Evil character. From the start she don´t care about party or PC and saw everybody beneath her, after high affection she took the PC only as temporary ally. Finish of her story is leaving Faerûn on red dragon and never coming back.(rebelion ending or Vlakith ending)

Minthara is also written as Lawful Evil character, she is drow from lolth sworn city and member of the noble family. Her goal is get to the leadership of the cult of the absolute or become shadow ruler of the Baldurs gate(evil/good endings). Somehow she is written as a more likable character compared to Lae'zel even with a lot of cut content. (She is not just evil as a drow, she is a monster from house Beanre -Drizzt Do'urden, Siege of Darkness)

Astarion is written as Neutral Evil character, selfish, narcissistic, dysplaing typical sociopathic traits of a vampire. His end goal is become vampire lord. Understanable

Shadowheart is another example of neutral evil character. She is raised to become servant of the Shar. She is trained in lies, manipulation, infiltration and extraction of the informations with all the necessary means(inculiding seduction or torture of the target.). In evil path she will become champion of the Shar and "cleanse" local branch of Shar´s church in Baldurs gate. In good patch she will manipulate PC to force party to "save" her parents. In both cases she is just following orders from Shar. How is this supposed to be a good strategy from Shar?

Gale is neutral, he is prefering patch that will benefit him. From my DU playthrough he will just turn blind eye to atrocities committed by PC as long as he get to his end goal the crown of Krasus.(Killing druid grove in act one, killing harpers in act two, becoming blessed assasin of Bhaal in act 3. Gale will call you a bad boy/girl but stays in the party like a doggy.)He is written like a guy with no spine.

Halsim -This guy is definition of a sexual deviant and rufie bro. Every hole is a goal. He is written as a representation of toxic masculinity or something?

Jaheira - second recruitable druid, high harper of the Baldur's gate, as a typical Harper she don´t care about PC, or his party. For her you and your party are only tools to push harpers interests. In good path she is basicly an observer and her goal is sacrifice your party if the things go south (she show her true self during recruiting of the Mincs). In evil path she will basicly betrays your party on first opurtunity.

Karlach - she is written as chaotic neutral. She is a Zariel´s Lieutenant and member of the inner cycle. Her mission from Zariel is elimination of political enemy in Faerûn (Gortash). She only show PC a memories from battles in blood war, not a meeting with Zariel or planing any operations. As part of her disguise, she acts like a good ally to gain the trust of her potential allies, but if she's such a good gal, why does she eat soul coins like candy? After her mission is completed she and her ally Wyll will return to hells for reward from Zariel.(canonical ending) Come on guys, she is literally red demon with horns who swing around with axe...

Wyll the weak -His father is a CEO of PMC hired by Baldur's Gate city.(Hightmarshal of the Flamming fists). He was raised in wealth and luxury, with contact to the nobility and ruling houses of the Baldur's Gate. During adolescence Zariel´s Lieutenant Mizora manage to trick him to warlock pack. After this event, why didn't his father have him executed instead he just banishing him? Why did his fater as a paladin let him go after Wyll become servant of the hells, just to tarnish his family bloodline and name of the house? In act 2 after meeting Mizora in Moonrise towers Wyll should kill her and die as a hero. Taking down high ranking cambion in archenemy army should be a hero deat and he can redeem himselves. But instead he don´t even protest if the PC decide to release Mizora to the realms? In Act 3, why doesn't his father have him executed after he goes back to Baldur's Gate? Wyll is happy in a servitude of the Mizora. It will only be a matter of time before Wyll starts making blood sacrifices to his demonic masters in exchange for more power. I believe that Wyll is the character with the most plot holes caused by overwriting his story in early access.

Mincs the walking easter egg - second returning recruitable companion from previous games. I firmly believe he is only good aligned character in the game, character who is suffering from mental retardation (intel 6) and PTSD (failed his duty to protect his Rashaman witch Dynaheir + loss of friends after torture in Irenicus´s Dungeon.)

With one of these "people" should be inspiration character like Aragon or Luke Skywalker?

[EricHVela]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย GriffinPilgrim:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย GrandMajora:

That's because everybody is playing a devil worshiper, or a Lovecraft fan.

Am I the only one who plays Pact of the Arch Fey!?

Plus Celestial Warlocks are a thing.

I read over SMPS (or something similar, not sure of the source) that one player created a Warlock so narcissistic that the Warlock was the Warlock's own Patron. (I think it was really just a Wizard mechanically and self-Warlock flavor, but my memory of it fades.)

[eRe4s3r]

The funniest part about this is that in EA the word was we only got to see the evil/neutral companions. Last I checked all we got is Karlach, owlbear and dog for truly no questions asked "good" guys and gals. Act 3 stuff doesn't count, game has 10% content left at that point. Anyone introduced there is at best a sidekick (including Halsien).

Let's face it, Alfira is still as much needed as she was during EA - a just flat out KIND character who loves music and jokes, with sad backstory and good music for camp scenes. I feel robbed for not having her as companion (or eternal sidekick) option for my good playthroughs ;P

[GrandMajora]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย EricHVela:

I read over SMPS (or something similar, not sure of the source) that one player created a Warlock so narcissistic that the Warlock was the Warlock's own Patron. (I think it was really just a Wizard mechanically and self-Warlock flavor, but my memory of it fades.)

Well, they are Charisma based casters, so having a strong force of personality tracks.

[GriffinPilgrim]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Gaius:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย GriffinPilgrim:

Plus Celestial Warlocks are a thing.

Not in this game, no.

No but we were discussing how Warlocks are played on the tabletop.

[GrandMajora]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย GriffinPilgrim:

No but we were discussing how Warlocks are played on the tabletop.

If it's not Fiend or Great Old One, it's Hexblade.

Nobody wants an Arch Fey as their patron...

Which, to be fair, Arch Fey can be even worse ♥♥♥♥♥ than any of them. But think about how many fairy tales involve great heroes receiving aid from the fair folk?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqyEADY_20Y

[GriffinPilgrim]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย GrandMajora:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย GriffinPilgrim:

No but we were discussing how Warlocks are played on the tabletop.

If it's not Fiend or Great Old One, it's Hexblade.

Nobody wants an Arch Fey as their patron...

Which, to be fair, Arch Fey can be even worse ♥♥♥♥♥ than any of them. But think about how many fairy tales involve great heroes receiving aid from the fair folk?

Does the story of King Arthur ring any bells, people?

Well, Archfey are the wild card. Fiends and most Undead will screw you over on purpose, GOOs will probably screw you over even if they don't mean to (or notice), Celestials will play fair with you but an Archfey could go either way.

[GriffinPilgrim]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย GriffinPilgrim:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย GrandMajora:

If it's not Fiend or Great Old One, it's Hexblade.

Nobody wants an Arch Fey as their patron...

Which, to be fair, Arch Fey can be even worse ♥♥♥♥♥ than any of them. But think about how many fairy tales involve great heroes receiving aid from the fair folk?

Does the story of King Arthur ring any bells, people?

Well, Archfey are the wild card. Fiends and most Undead will screw you over on purpose, GOOs will probably screw you over even if they don't mean to (or notice), Celestials will play fair with you but an Archfey could go either way.

Last tabletop campaign I was in one of our party was married to her Archfey patron.

[Mike Garrison]

Lae'Zel is not evil. Not in a 5e context.

In her own culture, Lae'Zel is lawful neutral. The issue is that her own culture is dominated by two things: 1) it is ruled by an evil lich, and 2) the githyanki are raised to believe that all other people are simply resources to exploit in their war against the mindflayers.

With only a small amount of exposure to other people and other cultures, Lae'Zel changes her opinions about them quite quickly.

"Evil" in D&D is really a matter of valuing one's self over the good of other people, and Lae'Zel doesn't actually do that. She is willing to sacrifice herself for her queen and her people. But with exposure to non-githyanki, she rather quickly comes to understand that "other people" means more than just "other githyanki".

[Gaius]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย GriffinPilgrim:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Gaius:

Not in this game, no.

No but we were discussing how Warlocks are played on the tabletop.

Oh, sorry, I just read those comments and reacted in the context of the OP, didn't see it was a paralel discussion.

[Gaius]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Mike Garrison:

Lae'Zel is not evil. Not in a 5e context.

In her own culture, Lae'Zel is lawful neutral. The issue is that her own culture is dominated by two things: 1) it is ruled by an evil lich, and 2) the githyanki are raised to believe that all other people are simply resources to exploit in their war against the mindflayers.

With only a small amount of exposure to other people and other cultures, Lae'Zel changes her opinions about them quite quickly.

"Evil" in D&D is really a matter of valuing one's self over the good of other people, and Lae'Zel doesn't actually do that. She is willing to sacrifice herself for her queen and her people. But with exposure to non-githyanki, she rather quickly comes to understand that "other people" means more than just "other githyanki".

That is a huge issue with 5e - you can't use absolute terms like good and evil and also go all moral relativist about it.

Either good and evil are objective or just lawful and neutral are actual alignments. I'd even say chaotic is not a thing, because most people who ACT chaotic are just neutral acting in self interest. Other than that you enter the realm of mental disorders to explain characters like serial killers or the Joker.

[GrandMajora]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Mike Garrison:

Lae'Zel is not evil. Not in a 5e context.

In her own culture, Lae'Zel is lawful neutral. The issue is that her own culture is dominated by two things: 1) it is ruled by an evil lich, and 2) the githyanki are raised to believe that all other people are simply resources to exploit in their war against the mindflayers.

With only a small amount of exposure to other people and other cultures, Lae'Zel changes her opinions about them quite quickly.

"Evil" in D&D is really a matter of valuing one's self over the good of other people, and Lae'Zel doesn't actually do that. She is willing to sacrifice herself for her queen and her people. But with exposure to non-githyanki, she rather quickly comes to understand that "other people" means more than just "other githyanki".

Not entirely true. Lae'zel is absolutely loyal to her cultural upbringing right up until the fateful moment in the Githyanki Creche.

Even afterward, she still clings to hope of redeeming herself in Vlaakith's eyes, until she finally discovers just who exactly is in the artifact, then she makes it her life's mission to see them freed.

The only thing that can convince her turn her back completely on the Githyanki culture, is if you are romancing her. Even if you successfully pass the speech check to make her side with the emperor, she explicitly tells you she is only doing this because of how great the Absolute's threat is. But she is planning to ditch the party as soon as the battle is over.

Lae'zel cares about Githyanki first and foremost. Everyone else comes second to that, unless you're in a romantic relationship with her.

[GriffinPilgrim]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย GrandMajora:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Mike Garrison:

Lae'Zel is not evil. Not in a 5e context.

In her own culture, Lae'Zel is lawful neutral. The issue is that her own culture is dominated by two things: 1) it is ruled by an evil lich, and 2) the githyanki are raised to believe that all other people are simply resources to exploit in their war against the mindflayers.

With only a small amount of exposure to other people and other cultures, Lae'Zel changes her opinions about them quite quickly.

"Evil" in D&D is really a matter of valuing one's self over the good of other people, and Lae'Zel doesn't actually do that. She is willing to sacrifice herself for her queen and her people. But with exposure to non-githyanki, she rather quickly comes to understand that "other people" means more than just "other githyanki".

Not entirely true. Lae'zel is absolutely loyal to her cultural upbringing right up until the fateful moment in the Githyanki Creche.

Even afterward, she still clings to hope of redeeming herself in Vlaakith's eyes, until she finally discovers just who exactly is in the artifact, then she makes it her life's mission to see them freed.

The only thing that can convince her turn her back completely on the Githyanki culture, is if you are romancing her. Even if you successfully pass the speech check to make her side with the emperor, she explicitly tells you she is only doing this because of how great the Absolute's threat is. But she is planning to ditch the party as soon as the battle is over.

Lae'zel cares about Githyanki first and foremost. Everyone else comes second to that, unless you're in a romantic relationship with her.

No, you can talk her into staying in Faerun even if you're not romancing her. And even when she goes off she outright states she does so with regret.

[GrandMajora]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Gaius:

That is a huge issue with 5e - you can't use absolute terms like good and evil and also go all moral relativist about it.

Either good and evil are objective or just lawful and neutral are actual alignments. I'd even say chaotic is not a thing, because most people who ACT chaotic are just neutral acting in self interest. Other than that you enter the realm of mental disorders to explain characters like serial killers or the Joker.

Good and evil ARE objective in D&D, but morality itself is not keyed to one's biology. That's something people seem to be misinterpreting when they claim that 5th edition got rid of alignments.

5th edition did NOT get rid of alignments, they just made it so your alignment isn't dictated by your choice of Race / Class anymore.

Goblins and Drow might lean towards EVIL because of their cultural upbringing, but they still have the capacity to be GOOD within them.

[alanc9]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย GrandMajora:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Orion Invictus:

I meant the OTHER characters. Wyll's rewrite is well-known.

I'm not entirely sure about Gale, but early access data miners uncovered codes which suggested that Shar (the goddess who Shadowheart worships) would have had a more active hand in the Cult of the Absolute.

This is probably due to the fact the tadpoles have been augmented with Shadow Magic, while Shar is the goddess of the Shadow Weave. There were event bits of code which suggested that our Dream Visitor would have been Shar herself coming to us in disguise.

Interesting. Wasn't the original Nightsong a cleric of Shar?

[GrandMajora]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย alanc9:

Interesting. Wasn't the original Nightsong a cleric of Shar?

Not sure. Early Access didn't go beyond Grymforge, and didn't even have the Creche route. So anything beyond Act 1 was a large up to data miners and speculation.