Unarmored Defense

[4lesDvran]

For a monk/barbarian hybrid, which unarmored defense trait applies? the highest?

[Hobocop]

Technically, per 5e RAW, whichever one you gain first. Not sure in BG3's case.

[Millstone85]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

Technically, per 5e RAW, whichever one you gain first. Not sure in BG3's case.

Wow, I can't believe I never noticed this.

But you are right. 5e PH page 164: "If you already have the Unarmored Defense feature, you can't gain it again from another class."

This is such an odd restriction. Without it, I would assume that a monkarian's defense would simply fall under the page 14 rule: "If you have multiple features that give you different ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one to use."

[4lesDvran]

I just multiclassed and apparently it's the highest

[Mojo]

Isn't the Monk Unarmored Defense higher than Barbarian anyway? Can't remember.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by Mojo:

Isn't the Monk Unarmored Defense higher than Barbarian anyway? Can't remember.

One uses Wisdom, the other Constitution. Therefore it depends on your character build which is higher.

[AokiYakumo]

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Originally posted by Mojo:

Isn't the Monk Unarmored Defense higher than Barbarian anyway? Can't remember.

One uses Wisdom, the other Constitution. Therefore it depends on your character build which is higher.

Another thing to note here is BRB Unarmored Defense allows shields. MNK Unarmored does not.

This in mind, BRB will net a higher Unarmored Defense with the use of a shield than a MNK, by about 2 points on average assuming 18 in the auxiliary stat (CON/WIS) and 16 in DEX (or vice versa, this just came to mind 1st), resulting in an AC of 21/22 on the BRB compared to the 19/20 of the MNK.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Originally posted by Millstone85:

Originally posted by Hobocop:

Technically, per 5e RAW, whichever one you gain first. Not sure in BG3's case.

Wow, I can't believe I never noticed this.

But you are right. 5e PH page 164: "If you already have the Unarmored Defense feature, you can't gain it again from another class."

This is such an odd restriction. Without it, I would assume that a monkarian's defense would simply fall under the page 14 rule: "If you have multiple features that give you different ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one to use."

I think it's a holdover from when you couldn't be both. In earlier editions Barbarians couldn't be a Lawful alignment and Monks couldn't be a non-Lawful alignment.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Originally posted by アンジェル:

One uses Wisdom, the other Constitution. Therefore it depends on your character build which is higher.

Another thing to note here is BRB Unarmored Defense allows shields. MNK Unarmored does not.

This in mind, BRB will net a higher Unarmored Defense with the use of a shield than a MNK, by about 2 points on average assuming 18 in the auxiliary stat (CON/WIS) and 16 in DEX (or vice versa, this just came to mind 1st), resulting in an AC of 21/22 on the BRB compared to the 19/20 of the MNK.

Hm. Interesting. It never occured to me. A barbarian with shield I mean.

I even dipped 1 level of Barbarian into Wyll Warlock for an AC20 result. It is surely nice depending on how one uses it.

[AokiYakumo]

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Another thing to note here is BRB Unarmored Defense allows shields. MNK Unarmored does not.

This in mind, BRB will net a higher Unarmored Defense with the use of a shield than a MNK, by about 2 points on average assuming 18 in the auxiliary stat (CON/WIS) and 16 in DEX (or vice versa, this just came to mind 1st), resulting in an AC of 21/22 on the BRB compared to the 19/20 of the MNK.

Hm. Interesting. It never occured to me. A barbarian with shield I mean.

I even dipped 1 level of Barbarian into Wyll Warlock for an AC20 result. It is surely nice depending on how one uses it.

Yeah, usually Shield-Barians go the ROG route and be an AC tank with resistance to all damage and Uncanny Dodge procs, as opposed to throwers like the Berserker or GWM users (which get more attention because they go bigger d*qk damn-age and that activates the brains of people better). It's just as viable defensively, but loses value because defensive utility isn't as worthwhile as offensive utility (better to act rather than react sort of deal).

[Mojo]

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Originally posted by アンジェル:

One uses Wisdom, the other Constitution. Therefore it depends on your character build which is higher.

Another thing to note here is BRB Unarmored Defense allows shields. MNK Unarmored does not.

This in mind, BRB will net a higher Unarmored Defense with the use of a shield than a MNK, by about 2 points on average assuming 18 in the auxiliary stat (CON/WIS) and 16 in DEX (or vice versa, this just came to mind 1st), resulting in an AC of 21/22 on the BRB compared to the 19/20 of the MNK.

Thanks, like I said couldn't remember. Just thought Monk had a higher one. :)
I can admit when I am wrong. lol

[AokiYakumo]

Originally posted by Mojo:

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Another thing to note here is BRB Unarmored Defense allows shields. MNK Unarmored does not.

This in mind, BRB will net a higher Unarmored Defense with the use of a shield than a MNK, by about 2 points on average assuming 18 in the auxiliary stat (CON/WIS) and 16 in DEX (or vice versa, this just came to mind 1st), resulting in an AC of 21/22 on the BRB compared to the 19/20 of the MNK.

Thanks, like I said couldn't remember. Just thought Monk had a higher one. :)
I can admit when I am wrong. lol

No problem at all. The other user also had a valid point: it'll depend entirely on stats which is better. I just used an assumption based on Optimized Point Buy to give a baseline for the math, but YMMV.

Now, that said, Barbarians get medium armor prof. innately. They can get an AC of 20+ without needing to focus on two stats by equipping the right medium armor (AC 22 is possible with Armor of Agility and 20 DEX, but again this goes to BRB/ROG multiclassing as opposed to traditional BRB multiclassing; under normal circumstances you'll likely end up in Adamantine Scale or Flame-Enameled Armor since both net AC 18 with 14 DEX with additional bonuses like crit immunity or fire resist).

[jonnin]

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Another thing to note here is BRB Unarmored Defense allows shields. MNK Unarmored does not.

This in mind, BRB will net a higher Unarmored Defense with the use of a shield than a MNK, by about 2 points on average assuming 18 in the auxiliary stat (CON/WIS) and 16 in DEX (or vice versa, this just came to mind 1st), resulting in an AC of 21/22 on the BRB compared to the 19/20 of the MNK.

Hm. Interesting. It never occured to me. A barbarian with shield I mean.

I even dipped 1 level of Barbarian into Wyll Warlock for an AC20 result. It is surely nice depending on how one uses it.

but... why?
a 1 level fighter dip gets you the style (+1 def in armor), shield (though wyll has by race), heavy or med armor (depending on dex built or not, but wyll wouldn't need any dex). He can be at 20+ AC in early act 1 with style/shield/chain+1 and upgrade from that.
The unarmored stuff is static and the higher your level, the less it works. I suppose if you help him the evil way, you get a +1 robe to go with being naked, but ... its not that good. Even a dex 14/ med armor / shield is better than barb with 16 con/shield and naked or in barb rage cloth etc. Unarmored would work if you could punch your stats to 20+ easily earlier in the game, eg a 20+ dex and 20+ wis monk (who also has 14-16 con somehow too?!) and somehow also has 20+ str could function naked, but... meh, you could just wear armor and have 20+ str and 8 in everything except con.

[Spicy Tuna Roll]

Originally posted by jonnin:

Originally posted by アンジェル:

(depending on dex built or not, but wyll wouldn't need any dex)

Everyone wants Dex in this game, because initiative is done with a d4 and not a d20. Also dex is passive AC.

[OnlyOffensive]

Originally posted by jonnin:

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Hm. Interesting. It never occured to me. A barbarian with shield I mean.

I even dipped 1 level of Barbarian into Wyll Warlock for an AC20 result. It is surely nice depending on how one uses it.

but... why?
a 1 level fighter dip gets you the style (+1 def in armor), shield (though wyll has by race), heavy or med armor (depending on dex built or not, but wyll wouldn't need any dex). He can be at 20+ AC in early act 1 with style/shield/chain+1 and upgrade from that.
The unarmored stuff is static and the higher your level, the less it works. I suppose if you help him the evil way, you get a +1 robe to go with being naked, but ... its not that good. Even a dex 14/ med armor / shield is better than barb with 16 con/shield and naked or in barb rage cloth etc. Unarmored would work if you could punch your stats to 20+ easily earlier in the game, eg a 20+ dex and 20+ wis monk (who also has 14-16 con somehow too?!) and somehow also has 20+ str could function naked, but... meh, you could just wear armor and have 20+ str and 8 in everything except con.

You can also go infernal robe route and use shadow ( mage ) armor incantation, which is miles better than diping in barb just for AC lol

[AokiYakumo]

Aside from custom playables, all the characters in this game have light armor proficiency at minimum, with all but 1 having shield prof. (with the one outlier being Astarion). At minimum, one could always go +1 Leather and Safeguard Shield, with 14 DEX at 4th, and get an AC of 16 right out the gate.

AC 16, mind you, is actually pretty good in Act I, with AC in general diminishing on returns by mid Act II. (As someone who has an AC tank Swords Bard as a run, I can tell you that even with AC 25 and auto-disadvantage from Cloak of Displacement, I still get hit from time to time by Sarevok, the Watcher Titan, Orin, Steel Watch in general, etc. The odds are lower, yes - about 70% evade rate - but it does still happen, and often enough that it doesn't provide ample protection where it matters.)

As for the original discussion, it is simply a matter of BRB Unarmored v. MNK unarmored, and which would take priority, of which it's the highest of the two, but determined wholly by player stats and profs. MNK Unarmored is 2 points lower on average than BRB Unarmored, simply because BRB Unarmored allows shields, so if you're playing the AC game, BRB Unarmored is slightly better overall (that and it also boosts overall resilience to begin with by using CON as more of a DEF stat, meaning in addition to higher AC you also get more HP).