How scummy do you need to be to keep Astarion happy?

[Fluffykeith]

I was wanting to have the Neck Nibbler along for my current playthrough, on sneaky Bard duty...but I'm finding that any decisions I make, he disaproves of. I don't want to have to force myself to pick options just to keep him from hating me, but I read that if a companion approval gets low enough, they will leave.

So....just how much of a selfish A Hole do I need to be for him to not leave?

[✙205🍉🐆→]

Originally posted by KingOfFriedChicken:

Originally posted by ✙205🍉🐆→:

Even in Tyranny, the endings are made okay, the game has a budget of 3 bottles of budweiser

Where are you getting $33 million dollar bottles of budweiser? Lol

A good budweiser costs that much

[seeker1]

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Approval hardly matters.

So ... forgive me for diving into this statement. I think it's interesting as it relates to the question of why Larian didn't divide approval from romantic interest & into two separate "meters" (as is sometimes done in other games).

Why does it matter to raise approval? The interesting thing is, there's only one thing you really need to avoid at the low end. Companions will leave the party when their approval hits -50. IOW, 0 approval is fine. It's only at -50 they will leave (according to the Wiki). (Never had it happen - but I assume that's right). This basically pretty much means you have to put some effort into pissing them off to get them to leave.

And they'll even WARN you at =25 and -40 ... like ... "we're about to reach the last straw here, Tav". So it's not even like they leave suddenly.

https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Approval

So are there any benefits to raising it? No, not in a mechanical sense, like in other games where raising a companion's approval might cause a bonus of some kind to you or them (sort of like "bardic inspiration," I guess; the more they like you the harder they try in battle, or whatever).

Other than that - well it depends on the companion in some situational cases; for example, with Shadowheart it might affect how she will react to your attempt to influence her at a critical story moment. Spoilers. Although in many of those cases, you can even get by with low approval even if you have high Persuasion... (you can in that situation.)

So this is the thing I'm noting to those who say why didn't they separate approval from romantic feeling? ... yeah, I'm getting to my point ... because pretty much outside of romance, approval doesn't matter much, so ... outside of a small number of situational cases, romance is really the only reason you want approval to get very high.

And so yeah, if you're NOT interested in romance, you really don't have to go overboard with constantly flattering and buttering up companions to gain approval ... because there's really no other reason to do so.

TLDR: approval is MOSTLY there BECAUSE of romance. Hence, no reason to really separate them into two meters.

[kbiz]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Approval hardly matters.

So ... forgive me for diving into this statement. I think it's interesting as it relates to the question of why Larian didn't divide approval from romantic interest & into two separate "meters" (as is sometimes done in other games).

Why does it matter to raise approval? The interesting thing is, there's only one thing you really need to avoid at the low end. Companions will leave the party when their approval hits -50. IOW, 0 approval is fine. It's only at -50 they will leave (according to the Wiki). (Never had it happen - but I assume that's right).

https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Approval

So are there any benefits to raising it? No, not in a mechanical sense, like in other games where raising a companion's approval might cause a bonus of some kind to you or them (sort of like "bardic inspiration," I guess; the more they like you the harder they try in battle, or whatever).

Other than that - well it depends on the companion; for example, with Shadowheart it might affect how she will react to your attempt to influence her at a critical story moment. Spoilers. Although in many of those cases, you can even get by with low approval even if you have high Persuasion... (you can in that situation.)

So this is the thing I'm noting to those who say why didn't they separate approval from romantic feeling? ... yeah, I'm getting to my point ... because pretty much outside of romance, approval doesn't matter much, so ... outside of situational cases, romance is really the only reason you want approval to get very high.

And so yeah, if you're NOT interested in romance, you really don't have to go overboard with constantly flattering and buttering up companions to gain approval ... because there's really no other reason to do so.

TLDR: approval is MOSTLY there BECAUSE of romance. Hence, no reason to really separate them into two meters.

Weak argument. You're trying to square the circle.

Romance is bundled with Acceptance because it's easier to have one meter rather than two.

Acceptance requires moral alignment between two people. But they got rid of alignment in the game - yet you have a de facto alignment after you finished the game.

[seeker1]

Angel was right. I was agreeing with their point. "Approval hardly matters" in this game. It really IS true. The only thing you REALLY need to care about is keeping it from going so far south they leave. Other than that, it plays some very small situational roles.

It IS - basically - there for the romances. I don't think my argument is that weak, but of course I get why we wouldn't agree.

I will agree that your choice of what to do with the Brain could be broken down into a good or evil choice. In a way, a Dark Urge is also given a binary choice to follow in the evil path of daddy Bhaal, or reject it for redemption and going good.

But yeah there's no other way alignment matters - nothing and no one in the game cares whether what you do is more Lawful or more Chaotic. So whether your "good" character at the end is LG, NG, or CG, well, there's no way of knowing - not just from the ending.

I would argue Approval is not just being driven by them judging whether what you do morally aligns with their values. As after all, giving all of them flattery and compliments and even in some cases gifts (like night orchids) raises it. Approval can also go up if you do something funny and it makes them laugh. It can change simply by going against quirks of their personality. There are actually many things driving it besides just - well - "alignment of alignment".

Again - why can your approval by Astarion - the topic of the thread - go up, even if you regularly do good things and he seems to be evilly aligned. Because, other things are driving Approval. In particular, getting to understand him and why he does the things he does. In short, and we circle back to the thread title, "No, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE SCUMMY in order to keep him happy."

i really generally play good characters and at least try to make the least evil choices, as I would argue there are some dilemmas where it's not clear what the most "good" option is (take the spawn for example)- and they always gain relatively good approval with Astarion anyway.

Why: because of what I just said.

[kbiz]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Angel was right. I was agreeing with their point. "Approval hardly matters" in this game. It really IS true. The only thing you REALLY need to care about is keeping it from going so far south they leave. Other than that, it plays some very small situational roles.

It IS - basically - there for the romances. I don't think my argument is that weak, but of course I get why we wouldn't agree.

I will agree that your choice of what to do with the Brain could be broken down into a good or evil choice. In a way, a Dark Urge is also given a binary choice to follow in the evil path of daddy Bhaal, or reject it for redemption and going good.

But yeah there's no other way alignment matters - nothing and no one in the game cares whether what you do is more Lawful or more Chaotic. So whether your "good" character at the end is LG, NG, or CG, well, there's no way of knowing - not just from the ending.

I would argue Approval is not just being driven by them judging whether what you do morally aligns with their values. As after all, giving all of them flattery and compliments and even in some cases gifts (like night orchids) raises it. Approval can also go up if you do something funny and it makes them laugh. It can change simply by going against quirks of their personality. There are actually many things driving it besides just - well - "alignment of alignment".

Again - why can your approval by Astarion - the topic of the thread - go up, even if you regularly do good things and he seems to be evilly aligned. Because, other things are driving Approval. In particular, getting to understand him and why he does the things he does. In short, and we circle back to the thread title, "No, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE SCUMMY in order to keep him happy."

i really generally play good characters and at least try to make the least evil choices, as I would argue there are some dilemmas where it's not clear what the most "good" option is (take the spawn for example)- and they always gain relatively good approval with Astarion anyway.

Why: because of what I just said.

I agree with most of what you said.

Just not the romance part. There are important platonic variables that affect Acceptance.

Bundling Romance with Acceptance was an easy out. And the reason why everyone is shoehorned into declining sooo many romantic advances - every playthrough.

[Fluffykeith]

I appreciate all the responses and info, folks.
The way I play these games is I tend to pick a core group that I want to do the majority of the game with, so I can experience their interactions and stories and so on. I don’t like switching out unless I need to.

Unfortunately I’m also not good at being “evil” in these games either because those options don’t tend to make much sense to me. Try as I might I can’t work out an RP reason to attack the grove. Even from a selfish standpoint it makes more sense to me, to help them.

So I find I’m picking options that Bitey McBiteneck doesn’t like. I’m looking at choices that benefit me…and it doesn’t really benefit me to tell people they’re all going to die, or to kick squirrels etc.

So it’s helpful to know that even then he’s not likely to just walk off

[seeker1]

EDIT: just to be clear this is a response to kbiz, I know he doesn't like it when I don't quote directly. But it's for everybody to read.

Oh I agree. We're not apart on this. I think the main reason Larian didn't do two meters for romance vs. approval is simple ease of coding. Easier to design one system than two. Simplest and therefore the most logical explanation.

But - this is my other point - I don't think they did this IN ORDER to force or shoehorn anybody into anything. It's ascribing this additional motivation to them that I disagree with.

Now we've had many discussions about this. What changes in the game would I find perfectly acceptable?
a) Larian explicitly tagging flirts to/from Tav. Fine with that. Like:

"1. [Flirt] Gale, the way you use the Weave really makes me tingle." (etc.)

b) put in a "no romance" toggle directly in game settings. Fine with that.

And you know what? I know you keep asking for it, so no, it wouldn't bother me to put in.

c) a toggle setting that says "Tav must always flirt first". I'd be fine with that.

And now that we're at where we usually are. OK, so we agree? Now what? Go put it in Suggestions & Feedback at Larian's forum, or otherwise you're wasting your time.

If you want changes to the game, it's the only way it will happen. Regrettably, as none of this stuff bothers me in the slightest, I'm not going to sign your petition, but I won't resist the change you want, either, if it's on a toggle on/off setting.

[seeker1]

Originally posted by Fluffykeith:

So it’s helpful to know that even then he’s not likely to just walk off

Bottom line: his Approval has to be -50 for him to leave. Not just negative, WAY negative. He'll even WARN you once things are starting to get that far south.

It's literally like Larian has made it super hard for you to piss off companions to this point, like you really have to work AT pissing them off.

[Trolleur_Durden]

Having played with Astarion on both a good and evil playthrough, here's my take on it:

Astarion is, without a doubt, evil. He will approve almost every evil choice you can make, especially those that are petty, cruel and needlessly nasty. Kicking squirrels, bullying and scaring children, killing innocents for fun, and so on. He will also disapprove most of the good and selfless choices available.

However, at the end of the day, Astarion is above all selfish and concerned about his own interests and self-preservation, which means that you won't gain/lose much for most of your choices which are not tied to him. For example, kicking the squirrel will give you a +1 approval, while agreeing to help Halsin after freeing him will net you only a -1. Interestingly enough, he also has quite of a thick skin, you will almost never lose approval with him by being sassy, throwing jabs at him and so on. For example, telling him "Jealous you're no longer the least trustworthy person in our camp?" after he makes a comment about recruiting Minthara has no effect on his approval.

What really matters when it comes to Astarion's approval are a few key choices tied to his backstory and his condition as a vampire spawn. Those can net you a lot of approval, like +10 or so, and are key to keep Astarion happy, even if you are on a good playthrough. Without spoiling much, be understanding when it comes to vampirism and have his back without question whenever you encounter his enemies, and you will have no issues keeping his approval on the higher end, even if it seems like he disapproves almost everything you do otherwise.

[❤N'wahCliffracer❤]

I romance him every time. Chaotic neutral or neutral evil. Like if someone wants help, ask them how much gold you're getting in return. Then again, this how I have pretty much always played DnD. If you're a goody-goodie, he isn't going to approve.

It also depends on how far you're in, too. He does not like being controlled.

And yes, they will leave. I have had Karlach, Wyll, and Gale all leave on one playthrough. I was able to keep Gale in one of them. Somehow while being a giant douche I had Karlach and Wyll to the end. Depends on how you play. I never took them anywhere really. It's always me and my boy Astarion, some playthroughs Lae'zel and Shart. The last one was me ans Astarion. Minthara and Gale.

[OnlyOffensive]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Angel was right. I was agreeing with their point. "Approval hardly matters" in this game.

Depends on what you expect from "approval". Some mega powers? Second form or smth?
You get to know characters better, earlier, you get inspirations. Which is good enough i guess.

For example if Gale approves you early, he shares about item consuming way before it happens naturally. Same with Astarion, you can learn about his back way earlier than you would otherwise. I think thats what approval mostly for - characters like you - you get to know them better.

[seeker1]

As I said, in some games, approval CAN unlock bonuses for characters. This isn't one. It could be an expectation if you've played other ones. Inspiration is cool but let's be honest it's my Tav using inspiration to reroll something 90% of the time, so that other companions are getting it is largely gravy.

Fair enough. I agree with your assessment. And I think getting to know people better often in many settings CAN lead to romance, no? If both people want it, of course. Right?

[OnlyOffensive]

Originally posted by seeker1:

As I said, in some games, approval CAN unlock bonuses for characters. This isn't one. It could be an expectation if you've played other ones. Inspiration is cool but let's be honest it's my Tav using inspiration to reroll something 90% of the time, so that other companions are getting it is largely gravy.

Fair enough. I agree with your assessment. And I think getting to know people better often in many settings CAN lead to romance, no? If both people want it, of course. Right?

Yes tav reroll, but inspiration points shared PLUS you get extra exp on those characters.
I personally think thats good there is nothing "op" in getting approval, it also makes different playthroughs more interesting since you dont need to metagame companions

[kbiz]

Originally posted by seeker1:

EDIT: just to be clear this is a response to kbiz, I know he doesn't like it when I don't quote directly. But it's for everybody to read.

Oh I agree. We're not apart on this. I think the main reason Larian didn't do two meters for romance vs. approval is simple ease of coding. Easier to design one system than two. Simplest and therefore the most logical explanation.

But - this is my other point - I don't think they did this IN ORDER to force or shoehorn anybody into anything. It's ascribing this additional motivation to them that I disagree with.

Now we've had many discussions about this. What changes in the game would I find perfectly acceptable?
a) Larian explicitly tagging flirts to/from Tav. Fine with that. Like:

"1. [Flirt] Gale, the way you use the Weave really makes me tingle." (etc.)

b) put in a "no romance" toggle directly in game settings. Fine with that.

And you know what? I know you keep asking for it, so no, it wouldn't bother me to put in.

c) a toggle setting that says "Tav must always flirt first". I'd be fine with that.

And now that we're at where we usually are. OK, so we agree? Now what? Go put it in Suggestions & Feedback at Larian's forum, or otherwise you're wasting your time.

If you want changes to the game, it's the only way it will happen. Regrettably, as none of this stuff bothers me in the slightest, I'm not going to sign your petition, but I won't resist the change you want, either, if it's on a toggle on/off setting.

Your sweet words thunder in my ears. Just sign here, here... and here.

You sound like a reasonable dude.

Yeah, my whole point is it's a solution without cost. Just switch the point where two paths diverge in a wood. Everyone then can pursue or avoid romance with none or one or some.

As for a petition, that's not my style. I'm just gonna advocate for it while I'm here. And if it makes sense, the word will get out.

[AokiYakumo]

Originally posted by ✙205🍉🐆→:

Even in Tyranny, the endings are made okay, the game has a budget of 3 bottles of budweiser

What in the ChatGPT?