The companion roster is very "human-heavy"

[Malidictus]

This isn't so much a complaint as an impression I got once I recruited the full set of available companions. Nearly all of them are either human or very "human-like". Let's look through the them.

Right off the bat, the party has three straight-up human characters - Gale, Wyll and Minsc. Nothing to say there. Beyond that, there are two Half-Elf characters - Shadowheart and Jahera. Besides having pointy ears, they look functionally indistinguishable from humans. Then there are two full Elves - Astarion and Halsin. Well, I suppose technically three, if you count Minthara, but she's mutually exclusive with Halsin. So that's 7-8 characters from a party of 9-10.

There are exactly two exceptions to this - Khark is a Tiefling and Leizel is a Gith. They both look visually significantly different from your standard human or mostly-human. I suppose Wyll might count, as he does become a Devil in some circumstances.

But that's it. The game offers so many playable races, but the bulk of our companions are Human, Elf-Human or Elf and all look pretty much like slightly altered regular people. We don't get companions from any of the shortstack races - no Halfings, no Gnomes, no Dwarves. Why couldn't we recruit Barcus, shame him into a proper adventurer and help him get out of his abusive relationship with Wulbren?

No Half-Orcs, either. Although to be fair, I can only think of a single Half-Orc character with more more than two lines: Z'rell. And even she has such a minor role I had to specifically go look up her name. Plus, she's entirely dedicated to the Absolute and wouldn't really be fit for a companion.

Oh, and no Dragonborn, lest we forget. None of those with any real presence. It's just weird that this game offers such a wide variety of playable races, yet almost exclusively uses the ones that look like run-of-the-mill real people. Not really sure why.

[Malidictus]

GrandMajora eredeti hozzászólása:

No, I was not aware of that. You asked for races which weren't just humans with pointy ears, and there are a crap ton of those.

I can't speak for the person you're responding to, but my interest in creating this thread was entirely superficial. I noticed how many of my supporting character looked like humans with slightly pointy ears. It was only after doing a head count that I realised the majority of my supporting cast is Human, Elf/Human or Elf - and Elves already look nearly exactly like humans.

I found this odd, considering work already went into a significant number of less-obviously-human races. We get A Gith and A Tiefling which I appreciate, but that's where the variety ends. Everyone looks like just... people. It's why I brought up the "shortstack" races of Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes, as well as the significantly distinct race of Half-Orcs. And really, I'd like to see a "full Orc" though I'm sure there are alignment issues there.

My extreme disinterest in culture aside, "culture" as a concept is specific to the individual, not to their biology (so to speak). Look at our exposure to Hobgoblins, for instance. One fits the stereotype, being a power-hungry, violent, rude savage. Another is a soft-spoke, polite, timid scholar. Another still is an incredibly dense, simplistic individual whose critical thinking seems to stop at who's friend and who isn't. Well, I suppose a fourth is the refugee complaining about being turned away from the city for being a Hobgoblin, "as if I can change that!"

Culture is the domain of storytelling and not really something I find relevant to the subject at hand - though I obviously don't mean to stop you from discussing it. What I'm interested is quite literally skin deep. I would have expected more people with non-human skin colour, non-human features and potentially fur or scales. Dragonbrone does that quite well, but we don't get one as a companion.

Poptart eredeti hozzászólása:

Most of the 'lack of diversity' is from the story stand point - settings, where we're able to travel, narrative sense. On the mechanical side of game development - it's cheaper and more fluid to have the majority of figures you're working with be within relatively the same body types. More animations can be reused, less clipping issues, easier facial expressions.

All of that's already rigged up, though. Well, I've heard rumours of Dragonbrone being rushed and some aspects of their rigging being left wanting, but Half-Orcs seem fully functional. On account of I can recruit one as a Hireling. Same for Halflings, Gnomes and Dwarves. And I'm almost positive I'm forgetting somebody.

jonnin eredeti hozzászólása:

BG is a human city. That said, the surrounding areas have a variety of settlements. The most populous races in this world are, in order, orc, human, dwarf, elf. Half breeds (mostly common elf, very rarely other types) used to be uncommon, and until jarlaxle led the drow to the surface to 'trade' (escape) the idea of a half-drow (other than the unique drizzit child) was virtually unthinkable -- more or less attack on sight (drow vs any others, see drizzit's reception to the surface world).

Fair enough, but the city is still full of those other races I'm talking about. Half-Orcs and Dragonborne are admittedly fairly rare in the city proper, but Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes are common. A few even in fairly major roles, such as Dolor the "Dwarf dressed in red". Not just that, but elves with non-human skin colours also show up. Ambassador Florrick is a sickly green, just off the top of my head. The characters are there in the setting as depicted in the game - I just can't convince any of them to join me.

Besides, yeah - there are also Acts 1 and 2. Those take place outside the city, one specifically in Goblin territory where some of the less human races can be found. I've brought up Hobgoblins a few times (probably too many times), but Bugbears are also not infrequent. There's even one with a fabulous gentlemanly moustache in Moonrise Towers that I'm quite fond of. Or would be quite fond of if he weren't an evil brain-sucking cultist.

Vixzian eredeti hozzászólása:

Next is that physical differences MATTER in the sense that humans are visual creatures. Diversity is NOT oh they have pointed ears lmao. No one sees personality or culture first that's just a fact. Everyone here keeps talking about how "OH but this is fantasy" cool story bro then you can back that statement up by pushing for races that don't look like you.

I thought that's what I was doing making this thread :) Humans are fine, no complaint there. In fact, it would be weird if there weren't any human companions. I just find them to be... honestly quite boring overall. I've seen humans all my life. I know what they look like. Been there, done that. I'm far more interested in seeing things I've never seen before, or at least ones I've not seen very often. It's why I'll typically pick the "Robot Race" if available, or the "Monster Race", or the occasional anthropomorphic furry if games actually allowed it.

If I had a magic wand, I'd love to see Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears in the game. I'd like to see an Undead playable character, as well. As per Mystic Carrion's questline, the setting supports sentient undead. I'd like to play as some kind of sentient Construct, ala Bernard - though Bernard is objectively not Sentient. That might be going outside the bounds of DND itself, though.

Darth Cannabis eredeti hozzászólása:

Also consider story wise and how ceremorphosis works. The reason most of our companions are the more humanoid races is because that what a tadpole has to be inserted into to create Mind Flayers.

True enough, but the roster's already not all infected with Tadpoles. Halsin and Jahera are clean. There's no real requirement that all companions must be Ilithid. Sometimes we can make friends with (or pay) people we run across, and convince them to join us despite not being in the same plight. This is where my idea of recruiting Wulbren comes from. Yeah, he sucks as an Adventurer, but that could be a character arc - learning skills and gaining confidence.

Honestly, I find the Ilithid angle to be more than a bit of a crutch in the story. It makes sense for the core cast (Avatar, Shadowheart, Leizel, MAYBE Astarion) but it doesn't do much for the rest. It doesn't hurt, mind you - nothing wrong with it. Just using that as a requirement seems unnecessary.



Disclaimer

Sorry about the massive posts. The thread's moving fairly quickly and I only check up on it every so often, so I try to bundle my responses instead of making 11 small one-response posts at a time.

[GrandMajora]

Vixzian eredeti hozzászólása:

There really isn't. Each of the races is basically just a human with ears.

I would respectfully disagree.

Elves = The epitome of traditional, western beauty standards. With sharp, angular features, perfectly symmetrical, unblemished skin and an almost total lack of body hair. They also have naturally slender physiques that move with an almost supernatural grace.

Dwarves = Officially described as being just as wide as they are tall (so roughly 4 - 4.5 feet). I have yet to see a game that accurately portrays them as such, and I imagine it would be quite hilarious if they ever did so.


Gnomes = Almost look like clowns in this game, as their heads and hands seem to be disproportionately large when compared to the rest of their body.


Githyanki = The first time I saw these things in the monster manual, I thought they were a form of mummified elf, or perhaps a lich. As much as people like to harp on the Githyanki looking ugly in this game, I say they got a huge makeover compared to previous editions. Because holy crap, NOBODY would be romancing Lae'zel if they went with the old style.


Orcs = in older editions of the game, they looked a lot more pig-like than they do now. In fact, a lot of them even had snouts and floppy ears.

[Babbles]

Adam__86 eredeti hozzászólása:

That is the D&D lore

Very few races are non-human looking

Also pretty hard for a spinni-form or matti-form to hold a long sword ...

[Jean-Maurice Nya]

Well, Larian is not well versed into D&D, that's why they should have sticked to Rivellon. They always had difficulties to handle diversity and be good at writing stories. Plus, Tencent has a word to say, and in China let's say that diversity is... a sensible topic.

[Malidictus]

LivingVitae eredeti hozzászólása:

Also, Larian complained people only play the human-like races - it's not surprising why.

Yeah, I suppose there is that. Most people do seem to want to "identify" with the character they're playing. I used to be like that, some 20 years ago. City of Heroes changed my perspective fundamentally. Due to the game's focus on "alt" characters, it put me in control of not just A protagonist but an entire group of individual characters, often with conflicting goals as of City of Villains. Can't really identify with only a single character in a setting I control, as all that produces is a Mary Sue. Can't have a character make a mistake that I - the author - know is a mistake ahead of time. Well, it was for me, anyway.

So yeah, I would guess most people would play either Humans or human-looking Elves. But this is why non-human races are so valuable to me when games do feature them - because it's actually somewhat rare.

[Narky]

Vixzian eredeti hozzászólása:

Finally some well thought out facts. Yep this is absolutely a thing and one of the things I hate about human nature. Our need to be able to relate to things that are like ourselves.

I won't get into the hypocrisy of diversity in the real world but in fantasy it's everything's about diversity in terms of changing races to make them seem more inviting which really actually means less diversity because they're being made to be more human rather than just accepting them as they are lmao.

Diversity but when it's convenient and when we can tailor make what said diversity looks like. Brilliant.

Then there's another studied fact that melting pot scenarios that involve different cultures, erases said cultures. Culture is a thing that takes repetition, practice, the space and people to grow it (where it's not butting up against another culture or lack thereof), a lifestyle that is passed down... which is something that disappears when brought into 'modern society' such as in big cities, etc. Which is not to say that diversity isn't cool but at the same time it's not without downsides.

SMH.

The Psychology of Anthropomorphizing has nothing to do with your issue on the LGBT culture present in the game.

Malidictus eredeti hozzászólása:

Black Magic eredeti hozzászólása:

The Star Trek Effect (for lack of term, it evades me right now), at least where differing races are concerned. It's difficult for people to relate to characters that do not present themselves as at least humanoid, and is why a person is less likely to pick a Dwarf or Gnome to play as opposed to an Elf—even if they're personally not keen on Elves.

Yeah, but you can go pretty far afield from humans and still be technically "humanoid". Dragonborn are VERY far-removed from the rest of the "slight variation on human" choices while still fitting most of the same animations and gear. Hobgoblins are another example, as well - though I don't believe I've seen female versions of those in the game. There aren't many in general. Would have been interested to have some kind of sentient construct, as well... though that's probably not feasible on technical grounds. It would affect A LOT of a character's stats and mechanics.

Yep—while I have my gripes about the lack of variability concerning the races, I find it's likely no light task for the devs to add more unique assets to the game. Some more that can fit the far-removed element of humanoid I'd have liked to have seen added are a handful, like the Aarakocra, Raptoran or Genasi.

[Richard Steel]

Perhaps it could have been better. Then again, the city of Baldurs Gate is presented in BG3 as the Elven Jewel of the sword coast, given the crazy population of elves in the city walking around in human clothing, with human mannerisms etc. Baldurs Gate 3 is has a lot of great things about it, but Larian did make some weird choices that aren't too consistent with the Forgotten Realms setting.

[dagdriver]

That is a very interesting post. I have been holding back on getting BG3 for the simple reason that I found the possible companions to bee too weird aka too "non-human" heavy. I simply dislike those weird fire/ demon / orc looking creatures that you aparently pickup, I preffer a human or very near human like party. pointy ears? no thanks, but I have gotten used to them over time, so I can look past them. Horns? Just NO, go away!. Scaly skin, just NO, gross

[lailaamell]

tieflings are in lore humans like they are in fact more human than half elfs are

[TyranntX]

dagdriver eredeti hozzászólása:

That is a very interesting post. I have been holding back on getting BG3 for the simple reason that I found the possible companions to bee too weird aka too "non-human" heavy. I simply dislike those weird fire/ demon / orc looking creatures that you aparently pickup, I preffer a human or very near human like party. pointy ears? no thanks, but I have gotten used to them over time, so I can look past them. Horns? Just NO, go away!. Scaly skin, just NO, gross :lunar2019laughingpig:

Did you seriously just necro a year old thread?

[Malidictus]

TyranntX eredeti hozzászólása:

Did you seriously just necro a year old thread?

To be fair, it is relevant to the original discussion and the character roster hasn't changed - aside from Minthara and Halsin no longer being mutually exclusive.

[.Master Jiren, The Strongest]

Yeah but thats a thing with fantasy games. And if you start adding too many fantasy races it starts to get into...other territory.

world of warcraft is a fantasy game that is the #1 most successful fantasy game of all time, for a video game at least. It has two factions. The Horde faction is full of monstrous races, but the Alliance faction gets criticism for being too human-oriented. You've got your humans (human, kultiran, gilnean) your short humans (dwarf/gnome/mechagnome/dark iron dwarf/ earthen), and your pointy eared humans (night elf, void elf, )
The only option you have that isn't human-esque are the Dranei, which are just space goat mindflayers.

So, yeah, DnD and WoW being the two biggest fantasy games, and the majority of the fantasy characters are human-esque.

[GrandMajora]

.Master Jiren, The Strongest eredeti hozzászólása:

The only option you have that isn't human-esque are the Dranei, which are just space goat mindflayers.

You've also got Pandaren, who are faction neutral. You get to choose whether you join Alliance or Horde after finishing up the starting newbie zone.

Then there's the Worgen, who can just stay in their werewolf form the entire game, without ever turning back into humans.

[jonnin]

There are 2 humans right off the bat. Minsc is so late in the game that redoing your party to include him is more hassle than its worth, in spite of his awesomeness as a mainstay of the series.

3 out of 10 is high but its for the most common race in this world (forgotten realms world).
2 elves actually is a bit high, since elves are somewhat low population and a little bit isolationist. One of those, probably halsin (what masc. dwarf isn't a little bear-like?) shoulda been a dorf.

Trying to work in one of everything.. there are 11 races and 10 companions, so 1 of each would have required an extra.

Every race is more or less human except dragonborn. Skin color, ears, height/weight, and minor extra like horns are all you get between ALL the races. No one has 4 arms or usable wings or tentacles ... its not a star wars bar scene and while you can DO that in tabletop, these established worlds are what they are at this point, unless you want to write in your own book about how the hutt's arrived on faerun... !!! Otherwise, in your tabletop game, sure, its allowed to have races be what you want them to be.

personally the letdowns for me are:
- the poor choices of cantrips for the high elf derived companions
- the lack of 1 dwarf somewhere

[Cabusha]

I use the mod to turn Gale into a halfling. That lack of shorty representation is outrageous!