wizard love

[Steppenrazor]

why is it each dnd edition.. seems to have messed up wizards?

Wizards used to be these.. hidden masters.. who know of stuff and can "wiggle their fingers" and send a fire ball into their enemies..

now.. in modern gaming, dnd rules - by and large they are just subpar sorcerers or wana be warlocks?

their main advantage in PNP DND is they can learn every/any spell they want, and tend to be better at crafting in the long term. (which few ever really reach.....

but in such a scripted game... that is kind of useless..
i mean sure there may be what? 8+ lvl 1 mage spells.. but if 90% of my game play i only use 2 or 3 of them? (mage armor + magic missile)

why go with a wizard with less casts of my core spells per day? RP reasons? k. im for that.. but still think Wizards need some CRPG love..

if only to show they KNOW magic.. while sorcerers, warlocks and the like ARE magic.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

You can do the same thing with careful positioning or building the entire party to fight at range.

But that's not as fun!

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Evocation Wizards in this game have the shaped spell feature, which causes their AOE spells to avoid party members. Meaning you can launch a fireball directly into the enemy ranks, without fear of nuking your own allies.

You can do the same thing with careful positioning or building the entire party to fight at range.

I will be immensely disappointed with the challenge level of BG3 upon release if it proves to be consistently possible to Fireball with impunity, with enemies never finding ways to reposition strategically within your formation, flank/ambush, or otherwise interfere with this plan.

[Gaius]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Evocation Wizards in this game have the shaped spell feature, which causes their AOE spells to avoid party members. Meaning you can launch a fireball directly into the enemy ranks, without fear of nuking your own allies.

You can do the same thing with careful positioning or building the entire party to fight at range.

I've been playing Gale as Abjuration for so long I actually forgot about this, so I decided to try again in my last run.

It's nice, I won't deny, and I have to tell, without meta knowledge of encounters it will become more important, because fights that start mid dialogue usually evolve into melee. Actually the spell I like most as "selective" isn't fireball, but Thunderwave, because it can "organize" the battlefield pretty nice in a single action (and the rectangular self centered AoE is pretty hard to avoid friendly target's, unlike tear shaped ones).

On the other hand, without meta knowledge Gale will be hit more, and temp HP + mage armor might decided if he'll live to take his turn...

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Gaius:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

You can do the same thing with careful positioning or building the entire party to fight at range.

I've been playing Gale as Abjuration for so long I actually forgot about this, so I decided to try again in my last run.

It's nice, I won't deny, and I have to tell, without meta knowledge of encounters it will become more important, because fights that start mid dialogue usually evolve into melee. Actually the spell I like most as "selective" isn't fireball, but Thunderwave, because it can "organize" the battlefield pretty nice in a single action (and the rectangular self centered AoE is pretty hard to avoid friendly target's, unlike tear shaped ones).

On the other hand, without meta knowledge Gale will be hit more, and temp HP + mage armor might decided if he'll live to take his turn...

Thunderwave is one of the most underrated spells in the game, especially considering Larian's penchant for cliffs and fall damage!

When somebody mods the Tabaxi, I'm going to make a group of casters (Sorc, Druid, Wiz, Cleric) called the Thundercats that only ise Thunder/Lightning damage. 😺

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

I will be immensely disappointed with the challenge level of BG3 upon release if it proves to be consistently possible to Fireball with impunity, with enemies never finding ways to reposition strategically within your formation, flank/ambush, or otherwise interfere with this plan.

Yet another complaint about cheese strategies making the game too easy?

First it was the elemental spells being able to create environmental hazards. (which admittedly was a hold over from DoS, and not actually supported in D&D)

Then it was people wielding the art of barrelmancy.

Now people are complaining that one of the biggest concerns people have about a fireball happy Wizard (friendly fire) has a way to resolve the problem?

[sevensided]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

I will be immensely disappointed with the challenge level of BG3 upon release if it proves to be consistently possible to Fireball with impunity, with enemies never finding ways to reposition strategically within your formation, flank/ambush, or otherwise interfere with this plan.

Yet another complaint about cheese strategies making the game too easy?

You just love finding fault when there is none, eh?

Now people are complaining that one of the biggest concerns people have about a fireball happy Wizard (friendly fire) has a way to resolve the problem?

That is....not at all what Yojo is talking about.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by sevensided:

Now people are complaining that one of the biggest concerns people have about a fireball happy Wizard (friendly fire) has a way to resolve the problem?

That is....not at all what Yojo is talking about.

Oh? Then please clarify the situation for me.

Because they mentioned enemies being able to position themselves properly, likely in order to get close to your friends so that you couldn't resort to scorched earth tactics.

[sevensided]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by sevensided:

That is....not at all what Yojo is talking about.

Oh? Then please clarify the situation for me.

Because they mentioned enemies being able to position themselves properly, likely in order to get close to your friends so that you couldn't resort to scorched earth tactics.

Sure, let's review the conversation thread in question-

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

You can do the same thing with careful positioning or building the entire party to fight at range.

I will be immensely disappointed with the challenge level of BG3 upon release if it proves to be consistently possible to Fireball with impunity, with enemies never finding ways to reposition strategically within your formation, flank/ambush, or otherwise interfere with this plan.

That's not a complaint about cheese. That's a hope for reasonable ai controlling enemies.

As a DM, in a TT situation, you bet your 4th point of contact that I'd have mobs staying danger close to the party if a fireball spewing wizard reveals themselves. And BG3 as a game would be better for an AI that has your enemies do something similarly. So if the AI is so bad that you can just easily and regularly get off fireballs without worrying about friendly fire because it stays clumped up and doesn't press your party, that likely means the game is going to be disappointingly easy.

Not a complaint about cheese.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by sevensided:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Oh? Then please clarify the situation for me.

Because they mentioned enemies being able to position themselves properly, likely in order to get close to your friends so that you couldn't resort to scorched earth tactics.

Sure, let's review the conversation thread in question-

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

I will be immensely disappointed with the challenge level of BG3 upon release if it proves to be consistently possible to Fireball with impunity, with enemies never finding ways to reposition strategically within your formation, flank/ambush, or otherwise interfere with this plan.

That's not a complaint about cheese. That's a hope for reasonable ai controlling enemies.

As a DM, in a TT situation, you bet your 4th point of contact that I'd have mobs staying danger close to the party if a fireball spewing wizard reveals themselves. And BG3 as a game would be better for an AI that has your enemies do something similarly. So if the AI is so bad that you can just easily and regularly get off fireballs without worrying about friendly fire, that likely means the game is going to be disappointingly easy.

Not a complaint about cheese.

Indeed, you have understood my comment.

[Quillithe]

Sorcerers usually get a bit of bonus in crpgs from advance meta knowledge you can have and a smaller spell list overall that lets you focus more on a few specific combat spells and not feel like you miss out too much.

Still think Wizards are fine.

[Meowella]

Necromancer Wizards can use a bonus action to order 138 skeletons to shoot their bows for 138d6+828 each round.

There's a lot of 'raw power' Wizards lack in terms of spellcasting, but they do get some benefits:
1) Ritual Magic. You need to identify something? Spend a spell slot as a Sorc or just be a Wizard. Same goes for the alarm spell.
2) No Sorcs allowed spells. While Sorcs get Chaos Bolt as a spell (a decent level 1 damage spell), Wizards get Find Familiar, Grease, Phantom Steed, Fabricate and a few others.
3) Wizard Subclasses are pretty strong. Not just the insane power of Necromancy, but Bladesinging (next to no chance bg3 adds it), Divination, Enchantment etc (I left off Abjuration because I don't think it's anywhere near as powerful as people pretend)

Sorcs have some advantages and are definitely fun, but don't make the mistake of thinking Wizards suck - they most certainly do not.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Meowella:

Necromancer Wizards can use a bonus action to order 138 skeletons to shoot their bows for 138d6+828 each round.

I assume you mean by level 20 (which won't be reached in this game), when those skelebois will only have a 5% chance of hitting anything, so only about 7 of them or so will hit per round (and most enemies will only take 1/2 dmg). 😉

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Originally posted by Meowella:

Necromancer Wizards can use a bonus action to order 138 skeletons to shoot their bows for 138d6+828 each round.

I assume you mean by level 20 (which won't be reached in this game), when those skelebois will only have a 5% chance of hitting anything, so only about 7 of them or so will hit per round. 😉

Well, hold up, bounded accuracy is here to save the day. Sure, they'd only have a 5% chance to hit a particularly thicc foe like a tarrasque, but normal enemies don't scale that high. Acererak "only" has 21 AC, that would be a 20% to hit.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

I assume you mean by level 20 (which won't be reached in this game), when those skelebois will only have a 5% chance of hitting anything, so only about 7 of them or so will hit per round. 😉

Well, hold up, bounded accuracy is here to save the day. Sure, they'd only have a 5% chance to hit a particularly thicc foe like a tarrasque, but normal enemies don't scale that high. Acererak "only" has 21 AC, that would be a 20% to hit.

Well, I was being cheeky about how higher CR enemies have higher AC's, but yes, even a Balor 'only' has an AC of 19 (seems D&D applies the bullet sponge philosophy of balancing - easy to hit, long time to kill, opposite for PC's).

In any case, what's most likely to happen in the majority of high level encounters is that they get wiped out by AoE attacks.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Meowella:

1) Ritual Magic. You need to identify something? Spend a spell slot as a Sorc or just be a Wizard. Same goes for the alarm spell.

Don't ritual spells take at least 10 minutes to cast, though?