i just learned dnd is removing half-elves and half-orcs

[D-Black Catto]

https://boundingintocomics.com/2023/04/04/dungeons-dragons-to-remove-half-species-from-players-handbook-claims-entire-the-entire-idea-is-inherently-racist/

and im just happy baldurs gate 3 comes out before this insanity kicks in. imagine a world without jaheira!

edit: apparently they are just reworking the half system to make any race being able to be a half. pretty cool tbh

[Aldain]

Quillithe a écrit :

Aldain a écrit :

I know I said I don't really have a horse in this race (no pun intended), but honestly from a casual observation I can't be the only one seeing the optics of this being incredibly misguided at best and insanely "buckshot to both feet" at the worst right?

I just think the more they draw attention to the topic the less meaningful and helpful said attention becomes.

Oh, I agree that it's rather awkward and unnecessary - this feels like some changes introduced by people to justify the existence of their jobs for sure.

I hate that people can make a living out of "solving" problems that don't exist...

Seriously though, all things considered I don't see this having any world peace bringing benefits, or any benefits at all assuming like I said in my first post in the thread that most players just don't outright ignore it.

[Yojo0o]

GrandMajora a écrit :

Yojo0o a écrit :

You said this was "according to WotC" and "official". That does not seem to be the case at all.

No, now you're doubling back on it. I told you the quote I posted was from the article he was reading, and you accepted it as official. But the moment I said it was from Arch's video, suddenly you're calling its validity into question.

This is another blatant sign that you've already dismissed any evidence I am likely to bring before you, simply because you hate the person who I got it from. So once again, I say if you want more evidence, go find it yourself. Don't ask me to waste my energy doing you a favor you won't even appreciate.

I think I've been extremely clear with what I've expected out of this exchange, but now I'm entirely unclear on what you're talking about.

So, again, I'll do a summation and invite you to correct me if necessary:

GrandMajora:

GrandMajora a écrit :

It's official. Race mixing is evil, according to WOTC.

I guess they want people to stick with their own kind?

https://youtu.be/UydJDBwMUjc

General rabble: Where are you getting this information that WotC is against race-mixing? How is this "official" or "according to WotC"?

GrandMajora: Provides a neutral quote from WotC referring to a terminology change, and apparently (not clear here) clarifying that the "official" sentence that started this exchange is not actually a WotC statement or quote, but rather a conclusion drawn from a third party.

Are we on the same page now? Is there something further I'm supposed to be gaining from this beyond the superficial? I thought you were in possession of some sort of damning WotC quote that more directly denounces race-mixing, the way this exchange has gone. Is that what I'm supposed to do more research on myself?

Also, no, hybrid race options aren't out of the game. They're more enabled than ever, thanks to Tasha's Custom Lineage mechanic, and we don't have the full info on the various species present in OneDnD or how their mechanics actually play out yet. So I don't agree with yours and Arch's conclusion, especially not the inflammatory tone of it in suggesting that WotC's statement is somehow Nazi-adjacent for this design choice.

[GrandMajora]

Yojo0o a écrit :

snip

Alright, I should have known not to feed the trolls.

Your appetites are ravenous...

[Yojo0o]

Dragon Master a écrit :

https://www.wargamer.com/dnd/half-elf-half-orc-racist-removed

https://reason.com/2023/04/05/dungeons-dragons-half-elf-half-orc-racist-woke-pc/

""Frankly, we are not comfortable, and haven't been for years, with any of the options that start with 'half,'" said Jeremy Crawford, a D&D rules designer, at a virtual event last weekend."

Jeremy Crawford, the face of D&D, is the one who said being half-anything is inherently racist.

I accept your quote, I firmly disagree with your conclusion from that quote. I acknowledge that JC could have worded it better. Your first link even acknowledges how much confusion it stirred up.

By my reading, this is clearly the design team simply being unhappy with the wording of "half-". It's not that being half-anything is racist, it's that the terminology defining these characters is, in his words, racist. I don't think it's racist, but I do think it could be better.

I mean, Occam's Razor here. What's more likely: That WotC is making some label changes in the new progression of DnD, or that they're unveiling their brand new racial purity position?

[Yojo0o]

GrandMajora a écrit :

Yojo0o a écrit :

snip

Alright, I should have known not to feed the trolls.

Your appetites are ravenous...

I've engaged with you in good faith, in a neutral tone, with logic and citation. If you choose to interpret that as trolling, then that's your business.

[Quillithe]

Yojo0o a écrit :

Dragon Master a écrit :

https://www.wargamer.com/dnd/half-elf-half-orc-racist-removed

https://reason.com/2023/04/05/dungeons-dragons-half-elf-half-orc-racist-woke-pc/

""Frankly, we are not comfortable, and haven't been for years, with any of the options that start with 'half,'" said Jeremy Crawford, a D&D rules designer, at a virtual event last weekend."

Jeremy Crawford, the face of D&D, is the one who said being half-anything is inherently racist.

I accept your quote, I firmly disagree with your conclusion from that quote. I acknowledge that JC could have worded it better. Your first link even acknowledges how much confusion it stirred up.

By my reading, this is clearly the design team simply being unhappy with the wording of "half-". It's not that being half-anything is racist, it's that the terminology defining these characters is, in his words, racist. I don't think it's racist, but I do think it could be better.

In particular what makes it very clear to me that this is the meaning is other quotes that refer to the 'half construction'.

Which is absolutely what you'll call the linguistic construction and doesn't make any sense as a way to refer to the actual character choices themselves.

EDIT: In particular in one of these links “The ‘half’ construction is inherently racist, so we simply aren’t going to include it in the new Player’s Handbook,”

There's no way this phrasing is meant to mean that half-elves themselves are racist as a character option.

[Cirrus]

Yojo0o a écrit :

Dragon Master a écrit :

https://www.wargamer.com/dnd/half-elf-half-orc-racist-removed

https://reason.com/2023/04/05/dungeons-dragons-half-elf-half-orc-racist-woke-pc/

""Frankly, we are not comfortable, and haven't been for years, with any of the options that start with 'half,'" said Jeremy Crawford, a D&D rules designer, at a virtual event last weekend."

Jeremy Crawford, the face of D&D, is the one who said being half-anything is inherently racist.

I accept your quote, I firmly disagree with your conclusion from that quote. I acknowledge that JC could have worded it better. Your first link even acknowledges how much confusion it stirred up.

By my reading, this is clearly the design team simply being unhappy with the wording of "half-". It's not that being half-anything is racist, it's that the terminology defining these characters is, in his words, racist. I don't think it's racist, but I do think it could be better.

I do not even know why it would be needed to word ”better”. It is honest statement why they are doing naming change. Either you accept the reason or not. This honesty is refreshing and and no washing or hiding the reasons.

[Yojo0o]

Cirrus a écrit :

Yojo0o a écrit :

I accept your quote, I firmly disagree with your conclusion from that quote. I acknowledge that JC could have worded it better. Your first link even acknowledges how much confusion it stirred up.

By my reading, this is clearly the design team simply being unhappy with the wording of "half-". It's not that being half-anything is racist, it's that the terminology defining these characters is, in his words, racist. I don't think it's racist, but I do think it could be better.

I do not even know why it would be needed to word ”better”. It is honest statement why they are doing naming change. Either you accept the reason or not. This honesty is refreshing and and no washing or hiding the reasons.

I mean, if we operate under the assumption that the folks here are at least speaking their opinions in good faith, then I think there's demonstrably some room for confusion with the statement.

I'd have explained it from an entirely different angle. Something like this: "We're revisiting how the races, now called "species" in the playtest, work in OneDnD: Rather than publishing a few specific hybrids such as Half-Elves and Half-Orcs, we're removing the "Half-" options entirely. However, all of the species are capable of breeding with each other and producing offspring which are viable player-character options, and rules will be provided for how to effectively play such characters. And, as a reminder, OneDnD is designed to be backwards-compatible with fifth edition, so the older versions of Half-Elf and Half-Orc found in the 5e PHB and supplements are still viable options in character creation as well."

[Aldain]

Yojo0o a écrit :

Something like this: "We're revisiting how the races, now called "species" in the playtest, work in OneDnD: Rather than publishing a few specific hybrids such as Half-Elves and Half-Orcs, we're removing the "Half-" options entirely. However, all of the species are capable of breeding with each other and producing offspring which are viable player-character options, and rules will be provided for how to effectively play such characters. And, as a reminder, OneDnD is designed to be backwards-compatible with fifth edition, so the older versions of Half-Elf and Half-Orc found in the 5e PHB and supplements are still viable options in character creation as well."

So yeah just one question about this.

...What is the point of this change exactly?

Putting all morals and arguments aside, what does this whole debacle actually accomplish?

The whole backwards compatibility thing means that even bringing this topic up was less to actually accomplish something and more to make a statement of some sort, a statement that honestly makes no sense and feels driven by people who focus way too much on such topics.

I just don't get who/what/why this entire thing is even a point of discussion and change, I saw no clamoring for this from any real portion of tabletop players either.

[Cirrus]

Yojo0o a écrit :

Cirrus a écrit :

I do not even know why it would be needed to word ”better”. It is honest statement why they are doing naming change. Either you accept the reason or not. This honesty is refreshing and and no washing or hiding the reasons.

I mean, if we operate under the assumption that the folks here are at least speaking their opinions in good faith, then I think there's demonstrably some room for confusion with the statement.

I'd have explained it from an entirely different angle. Something like this: "We're revisiting how the races, now called "species" in the playtest, work in OneDnD: Rather than publishing a few specific hybrids such as Half-Elves and Half-Orcs, we're removing the "Half-" options entirely. However, all of the species are capable of breeding with each other and producing offspring which are viable player-character options, and rules will be provided for how to effectively play such characters. And, as a reminder, OneDnD is designed to be backwards-compatible with fifth edition, so the older versions of Half-Elf and Half-Orc found in the 5e PHB and supplements are still viable options in character creation as well."

That clarified the technical part. But was there ever any confusion on that? All writers here seemed to understand that all humanoids can be combined now.

[Dragon Master]

Yojo0o a écrit :

Dragon Master a écrit :

https://www.wargamer.com/dnd/half-elf-half-orc-racist-removed

https://reason.com/2023/04/05/dungeons-dragons-half-elf-half-orc-racist-woke-pc/

""Frankly, we are not comfortable, and haven't been for years, with any of the options that start with 'half,'" said Jeremy Crawford, a D&D rules designer, at a virtual event last weekend."

Jeremy Crawford, the face of D&D, is the one who said being half-anything is inherently racist.

I accept your quote, I firmly disagree with your conclusion from that quote. I acknowledge that JC could have worded it better. Your first link even acknowledges how much confusion it stirred up.

By my reading, this is clearly the design team simply being unhappy with the wording of "half-". It's not that being half-anything is racist, it's that the terminology defining these characters is, in his words, racist. I don't think it's racist, but I do think it could be better.

I mean, Occam's Razor here. What's more likely: That WotC is making some label changes in the new progression of DnD, or that they're unveiling their brand new racial purity position?

You may disagree with my conclusions, nothing wrong with that. I, however, have come to my conclusions over many years of WotC engaging in a pattern of behavior that has been going down this road for years.

I've never hidden that I dislike the choices WotC has been making, nor my reasons for that dislike. I simply see the pattern of behavior and believe it showcases that they genuinely don't care about the game, just the narrative that they can spin about it so they can virtue signal on twitter and tumbler, all the while making snide comments about their core audience and just expecting us to take it.

It's just come to the point that even if the context of what they're saying isn't as bad as what the youtubers make it out to be they no longer get the benefit of the doubt from me.

I will still support independent projects that look good like Honor Among Thieves, Baldur's Gate 3 and so on, and I genuinely believe that if I cut them off entirely that I won't leave them any room to improve and earn my business back and thus would leave them in no position but to keep doing things I don't like and that's not reasonable either; I will support things that are genuinely good, I'll just put everything they do under extra scrutiny.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Quillithe a écrit :

Yojo0o a écrit :

I accept your quote, I firmly disagree with your conclusion from that quote. I acknowledge that JC could have worded it better. Your first link even acknowledges how much confusion it stirred up.

By my reading, this is clearly the design team simply being unhappy with the wording of "half-". It's not that being half-anything is racist, it's that the terminology defining these characters is, in his words, racist. I don't think it's racist, but I do think it could be better.

In particular what makes it very clear to me that this is the meaning is other quotes that refer to the 'half construction'.

Which is absolutely what you'll call the linguistic construction and doesn't make any sense as a way to refer to the actual character choices themselves.

EDIT: In particular in one of these links “The ‘half’ construction is inherently racist, so we simply aren’t going to include it in the new Player’s Handbook,”

There's no way this phrasing is meant to mean that half-elves themselves are racist as a character option.

You mean there are some people who don't inherently understand that by default?

I mean, I just sorta took it for granted, it seems pretty obvious to me.

They're not removing half-anything, they're just removing the labels and changing how racial traits work.

It's a literal non-issue. Is it a bit "busy body" of them? Yep. Does it hurt anyone or anything? Absolutely not.

[Dragon Master]

Pan Darius Loveless a écrit :

Quillithe a écrit :

In particular what makes it very clear to me that this is the meaning is other quotes that refer to the 'half construction'.

Which is absolutely what you'll call the linguistic construction and doesn't make any sense as a way to refer to the actual character choices themselves.

EDIT: In particular in one of these links “The ‘half’ construction is inherently racist, so we simply aren’t going to include it in the new Player’s Handbook,”

There's no way this phrasing is meant to mean that half-elves themselves are racist as a character option.

You mean there are some people who don't inherently understand that by default?

I mean, I just sorta took it for granted, it seems pretty obvious to me.

They're not removing half-anything, they're just removing the labels and changing how racial traits work.

It's a literal non-issue. Is it a bit "busy body" of them? Yep. Does it hurt anyone or anything? Absolutely not.

They ARE removing all half-race mechanics. No half-elves with +2 charisma and +1 to any attribute, no half-orcs with unique abilities to stay up after losing all their health.

All the mix and matching of parentage is just cosmetic now, it's more or less homogenized player characters.

[Yojo0o]

Dragon Master a écrit :

Pan Darius Loveless a écrit :

You mean there are some people who don't inherently understand that by default?

I mean, I just sorta took it for granted, it seems pretty obvious to me.

They're not removing half-anything, they're just removing the labels and changing how racial traits work.

It's a literal non-issue. Is it a bit "busy body" of them? Yep. Does it hurt anyone or anything? Absolutely not.

They ARE removing all half-race mechanics. No half-elves with +2 charisma and +1 to any attribute, no half-orcs with unique abilities to stay up after losing all their health.

All the mix and matching of parentage is just cosmetic now, it's more or less homogenized player characters.

Technically no, they're not removing them. They're just not publishing them in the most recent products. It's made clear in the interview that players are more than welcome to continue to use these races per their PHB 2014 rules.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Dragon Master a écrit :

Pan Darius Loveless a écrit :

You mean there are some people who don't inherently understand that by default?

I mean, I just sorta took it for granted, it seems pretty obvious to me.

They're not removing half-anything, they're just removing the labels and changing how racial traits work.

It's a literal non-issue. Is it a bit "busy body" of them? Yep. Does it hurt anyone or anything? Absolutely not.

They ARE removing all half-race mechanics. No half-elves with +2 charisma and +1 to any attribute, no half-orcs with unique abilities to stay up after losing all their health.

All the mix and matching of parentage is just cosmetic now, it's more or less homogenized player characters.

As it should be. At least in terms of stats.

Racial stat bonuses were intended to reflect racial averages, not necessarily potential, but instead ended up railroading players into 'optimal' class choices?

Are most high elfs smart and graceful? Sure, but you can still make one that's as dumb as a box of orcs and hits the gym on weekends without suffering from 'suboptimal' builditis because while uncommon, they still exist. Go ahead and play a high elf barbarian.

As far as other traits go, like dark vision, immunities, and so forth, these are a little more problematic and will need sorting out. I'm sure they'll come up with something that makes sense, and you can always homebrew it however you want to.

One way to do it would be to use a primary/secondary/tertiary list of 'racial' traits for the player to choose from.

Things like elven ancestry immunities or extra feat at level 1 (primary), proficiency in stealth and +5 ft of move or 2 extra skills of your choice (secndary) and sword/bow proficiency or two extra languages (tertiary) or whatever.

Pick one from each category from the list of either parent.