2h vs DW vs 1h + shield

[Volatility]

Just curious as to what people's thoughts are on the different fighting styles. Through a couple play throughs, I've used 1h + Shield or DW mostly. But I see a lot of people tout 2H.

I don't dig deep into the damage stats. And I have assumed the extra defense of +2 AC with a shield at least makes up for the less damage output of DW or 2H. But I'm interested to hear thoughts.

[Agony_Aunt]

Originally posted by Grumpy Old Guy:

Originally posted by Agony_Aunt:

So you're saying getting an extra attack when you kill an enemy or crit them is better than always getting an extra attack every round?

Sorry, i don't buy that logic.

Yes, you do do more damage with every hit using 2H, but you hit less, especially if you add in GWM feat.

There are plenty of good 1H weapons that you can dual wield, weapons that add damage or proc special effects. And if going for a STR based dual wielder there are even more options.

That's a great strawman but no, not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that the opportunity cost of using two weapons is that all of your regular attacks are weaker.

You don't hit less, that's just flat not true especially in the later sections of the game where you have WAY more hit bonus than you actually need and your damage is so much higher the missed attacks don't really matter that much.

Let me give you an actual breakdown of what a late game turn looks like.

You are a fighter, you're swinging with 24 strength probably with Giantslayer which is giving you a static +7 just from strength. Decent Gloves give you a +1 to hit, the sword is +3, you probably have permanent bless for another 1d4, proficiency is +4, oil gives +2 so even with the -5 to hit you're still looking at least a +13 to hit.

Now lets be REALLY nice and assuming for whatever reason you only have two attacks (because 3 makes this even worse for DW) with your action. Well haste potions make that four attacks, bloodthirst elixir makes it six attacks.

So now you have 2d6+10 base, +10 from GWM, +7 more from giantslayer for a total of 2d6+27 or an average of 34 damage per hit. 6 attacks is 204 damage. Even with the loss of accuracy you'll hit 2/3 of the time, so 4 hits on average, or 140 damage roughly. This is also assuming you don't crit or kill anyone because if you do that's 7 attacks anyway.

Same set up, but dual wield, your best damage is 1d8+10 per hit. Lets be really nice and assume you NEVER miss. That's 14 damage per hit, 7 hits is 98 damage. Not even close. Even with a Thief dip for two bonus actions you'll only do 112.

If you can get advantage with reckless attack or Vow of Enmity it leans even further in the favor of GWM, and getting advantage late game isn't hard to do.

The problem with DW is that it literally only gives you a bonus action attack and there are just better ways to get that, that don't involve gimping your damage of your normal attacks. I stress this is in the OPTIMAL conditions for dual wield too, assuming no advantage, no missed attacks on DW's part, no three attacks per action, no action surge, and it STILL can't pull even. In better conditions for GWM it absolutely blows DW out of the water.

If you want to use it, go ahead, nothing stopping you, but mathematically it's not going to do anywhere near what GWM is going to do.

Apologies, because it seemed to be exactly what you were saying, and i quote:

"Great weapon master also gives you bonus action attacks when you kill or land a crit so dual wield is even worse in that regard."

But ok, i see we are into the number crunching stage, but no need to limit yourself to two attacks, i look at the long term game, so you can count level 12 with 3 attacks if you like ;)

But in your number crunching you go with selecting Giantslayer as your weapon but then fail to choose good weapons for dual wielding.

My point was, you're getting added bonuses on your extra attack from the off-hand weapon as well.

I also don't accept your point about not hitting less with GWM active. Against low AC opponents, sure (and for the moment not considering natural 1s), but higher AC opponents will affect your hit chance, unless you're claiming you never miss (except on natural 1) with GWM active.... i presume you are not making that claim right?

Must admit, I had forgot about the double strength bonus from Giantslayer. Its a case of one weapon being really powerful and outclassing most other weapons.

I'll throw out some nice weapons to dual wield with:

Blade of the First Blood - Increases critical range (not sure if this will affect the other weapon you're holding, would need to test, but it works with the crit reducing bow equipped even if attacking in melee). If wielded in the off-hand, if a creature misses you it gets a free attack against them, which is nice.

Crimson Mischief - Additional 7 damage when attacking with advantage if in on-hand, off-hand it allows ability bonus to be added to damage, so its a way of saving on TWF feat and spend that feat on something else, but you really want to build for it then.

Devotee's Mace - heals you and allies for 1d4 every turn in combat.

Blood of Lathander - blinds nearby demons and undead (hello advantage!) and can heal you from death.

Vicious Battleaxe - when you deal a critical you get an extra 7 damage.

Salami - hah, can't 2 hand a salami!

Sussur Dagger - silences target on hit... good for those pesky spellcasters

Dolor Amarus - plus 7 damage on critical hit

The Adamantium weapons that always do criticals on hit

Tough Sunrises - deals additional radiant damage equal to your proficiency bonus

Staff of Interruption - counterspell

Staff of the Ram - chance to knockback and stun an opponent on hit

Spellsparkler - Gain lightning charges

Harmonic Dueller - great if your character has high Cha as adds Cha to damage.

Those are the ones that caught my eye as i scrolled down the list up to about half way, and doesn't include those that add elemental damage.

Anyway, just started a party of 4 fighters and decided to make them all dual wielders since I'm still impressed by how my dual wielding bard was keeping pace with Lazael damage-wise in my first run.

Need a break from my 4 wizard party that's currently in Act 2.

[Bony]

Slightly offtopic, one handed without offhand: the "duell" feat in paladins for example seems pretty useless in BG3.
My Paladin can wield a curved sword for 2-7 damage +2 from duell. No shield allowed. No versatile weapons allowed. no two handed allowed (so you can "duell" with a mace, but not a longsword btw...^^). And he makes 4-9 damage with this feat and curved sword and he must level up to get that feat and chose it over other benefits. With his starting warhammer he makes 2-11 and the feat doesnt count in this case..
Since you can cast spells even with two handed weapons in BG3, I dont get the benefit of this feat. Yes, you can wield a more powerful onehanded weapon, but you also can wield a more powerful twohanded weapon, so in the end it seems pretty useless.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by Bony:

Slightly offtopic, one handed without offhand: the "duell" feat in paladins for example seems pretty useless in BG3.
My Paladin can wield a curved sword for 2-7 damage +2 from duell. No shield allowed.

You can use a shield with Dueling because a shield is not a weapon.

[Bony]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

Originally posted by Bony:

Slightly offtopic, one handed without offhand: the "duell" feat in paladins for example seems pretty useless in BG3.
My Paladin can wield a curved sword for 2-7 damage +2 from duell. No shield allowed.

You can use a shield with Dueling because a shield is not a weapon.

Oh yes, you are right. I really can wield a shield and get the benefit. That makes sense. But this isnt what I wanted with "duell", I wanted a onehanded fighter with a non finesse weapon and without shield. Okay, now I'm one of the "paladins with shield"-guys it seems...
So in the end, "duell" is a shield feat because without it makes no sense, which is exactly what I didn't want.

[paladin181]

Originally posted by Kernest:

Originally posted by MensRea:

it also means that sword and shield gives you 1d8 +2 vice 1d10 so your minimum damage will always be 3 vice 1 with just sword alone (max is the same). So I am quite happy with it as they designed it.

I got it wrong on Duelling, but not on the math.

1d10 averages 5.5 dmg per hit, 1d8 is 4.5, 1 damage difference.

My point was that +2 to damage brings your average damage to 6.5, 1 better than what 1d10 deals.

And 6.5 is what 1d12 deals on average.

Where do you get that a d8 averages 4.5 instead of 4 or a d10 is 5.5? Is this some new math for calculating averages?

[Kernest]

Originally posted by paladin181:

Where do you get that a d8 averages 4.5 instead of 4 or a d10 is 5.5? Is this some new math for calculating averages?

You can calculate the average of what a dice rolls by adding the highest and lowest roll possible, and dividing by 2.

1+8= 9
9/2= 4.5

Please tell me how you arrive at any other result.

[Lani]

Originally posted by Bony:

Originally posted by Hobocop:

You can use a shield with Dueling because a shield is not a weapon.

Oh yes, you are right. I really can wield a shield and get the benefit. That makes sense. But this isnt what I wanted with "duell", I wanted a onehanded fighter with a non finesse weapon and without shield. Okay, now I'm one of the "paladins with shield"-guys it seems...
So in the end, "duell" is a shield feat because without it makes no sense, which is exactly what I didn't want.

Some older versions had Dueling as one handed without shield. I believe Pathfinder still has their rules that way. (Based off of 3.5)

[paladin181]

Originally posted by MensRea:

Originally posted by Volatility:

Just curious as to what people's thoughts are on the different fighting styles. Through a couple play throughs, I've used 1h + Shield or DW mostly. But I see a lot of people tout 2H.

I don't dig deep into the damage stats. And I have assumed the extra defense of +2 AC with a shield at least makes up for the less damage output of DW or 2H. But I'm interested to hear thoughts.

A lot of it (but not all) is window dressing. With the right stats/feats/gear you can make most builds do the same damage as most other builds. There are a few min/max exceptions but the big appeal, for me, is the ability to tailor to your specific build quirks that you want to create. For example I like a sword and shield Paladin, I like that I can use a versatile weapon (long sword) in one hand for 1d8(vice 1d10) and carry a shield but then can take a combat perk (dueling) that effectively gives me back the 2 points of damage if I want it. Balance between role play and game play needs.

The description says dueling only works with one handed non-versatile. Is that not the case?

[Lani]

Originally posted by paladin181:

The description says dueling only works with one handed non-versatile. Is that not the case?

From wiki:
Dueling works for versatile weapons when they are used one-handed, with no weapon in the other hand (a shield will not count as a weapon, so it will still apply if you use a one-handed versatile weapon, and a shield). You can try this by dueling, using a longsword & shield. Then, hit any box and check the dice roll in the logs. You'll see a +2 (Duelling) added to the attack roll. As long as you're not using a versatile weapon as a two-hander, the dueling will apply.

[Volatility]

I'm the OP. The last couple of days I've been rolling a party with a fighter, barbarian and paladin all using 2H weapons, and it's definitely changed my mind. This playthrough has been easier with the damage output. It's pretty significant.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Volatility:

I'm the OP. The last couple of days I've been rolling a party with a fighter, barbarian and paladin all using 2H weapons, and it's definitely changed my mind. This playthrough has been easier with the damage output. It's pretty significant.

This much is obvious. There are two best damage feats in the game exactly - GWM and SS. Is it such a surprise that only those two builds are the only ones that can compete with each other and are in the league of their own? +10 damage is no joke and the attack penalty is a joke because of the abundance of ways to mitigate it.

[Diomedes]

Originally posted by Kernest:

Originally posted by Snazzy Dragon:

shield is pretty good early and you can get one with +1 to all saving throws for one of your casters in the grove very early on, but i think there is too many items tailored towards dual wielding and two handed in this game to go sword and board for your actual martial characters.

I think it's just because there aren't that many exciting shields.

In your brain you know +2 AC and +1 to saving throws (or something similar) is good, but it just doesn't hold up to

BIG HAMMER WITH BIG DAMAGE!!!

LEGENDARY TRIDENT WITH COOL ABILITIES, YES PLEASE!

There are several amazing shields, including a legendary one. And I'd argue the shield prone knock down reaction is one of the most powerful abilities on a item. If a enemy fails the save it will not only stop them from taking any other actions during their turn. But gives advantage to everyone until their next turn.

[Kernest]

Originally posted by Diomedes:

And I'd argue the shield prone knock down reaction is one of the most powerful abilities on a item. If a enemy fails the save it will not only stop them from taking any other actions during their turn. But gives advantage to everyone until their next turn.

I don't disagree, that in fact was my whole point.

Reality vs. what looks cool and feels awesome.

[Agony_Aunt]

I like how people are now pointing out the benefits of the other fighting styles as well. Its not always about raw damage but sometimes utility or role.

Good thing about fighter is being able to select 2 styles which can either be used situationally or complimentary.

My party of 4 dual wielding fighters is going well enough. Just got them to level 4 so got the dual wielding feat, allowing some fun combinations.

One has two spears, Vision of the Absoloute and The Watcher's Guide.

Fun thing about this combo is the main hand gives a chance to blind and the off-hand, if it misses, makes the next attack have true strike, which will be the on-hand attack which blinds.

Very nice.

Also some fun combos to be had with dual wielding Wizard staves that do all sorts of fun effects.

[Hidden Gunman]

Originally posted by Revan619:

shield is for people you dont want in melee such as your casters. 2H is pretty good for front liners but dual wield hand crossbows is very strong

Absolutely right re the double wield hand crossbows. I gave Lazy El some magic great sword and a pair of magic hand crossbows, ultra killing machine.

Shield builds come into their own with the reaction moves....the knock prone is a real bonus, especially with some enemy who like to attack then go invisible.