Feelings on the Emperor and thoughts on his character (Spoilers, obviously)

[B I G]

How is everyone feeling about the Emperor as a character? Do you find his trustworthy and reliable, or do you distrust him and go against his advice?

Personally, for most of the game I was on his side even after finding out that he was an illithid, but many of the details you discover later on in the game made me reconsider my view,
He was an unwitting pawn of the Elder Brain for the entire game and whilst he does save your life on several occasion, he only does this to further his own end of gaining power over the brain/the crown.
If he consented to releasing Orpheus there would be no need to kill him, but instead of doing so he leaves to join your - and his, apparently - sworn enemy, demonstrating that his opposition to the Elder Brain was really just down to his desire to control it, once this is off the cards he willingly submits to it.
If you read into his backstory, he enthralled one of his closest friends and used her as a puppet to control Baldur's Gate and its people just because he liked being in control of "his" city.
Ansur tried desperately to heal him then decided to give him a merciful death. We are told that Ansur approached Balduran in his sleep and tried to kill him, which resulted in Balduran killing Ansur in self defense. The thing is, I'm not sure we can trust Balduran when he tells us this: it seems unlikely to me that an unconscious ilithid would be able to solo a grown dragon, if you directly compare their stats in game this more or less confirms this leading me to believe that Balduran actually assassinated Ansur. Either way, even if it was in self defense, he killed his best friend, covered it up and tried to dissuade you from learning the truth of the matter.
Ultimately he's manipulative an only concerned about power and I reveled in his death.

[Bloodwest]

I think Raphael gives you quite precise hint to what you are for Emperor back when he offers Orpheus' hammer for a Crown - you're a beast of burden. You may doubt it considering it comes from a devil, being careful around infernal beings never hurts but his words make sense (Raphael actually turned out rather reasonable character throughout the game) - for some reason, probably to avoid Absolute's influence, Emperor can't stray too far from Orpheus, source of his protection and it appears final showdown always includes Orpheus, either as living being or illithid food. He finds himself forced to consume Orpheus just to be present at final battle for long enough. And here's the player, who doesn't need to stay in Prism, strong enough to now allow it into wrong hands and reliable enough to eventually make it to final destination.
Emperor is a very manipulative character and I would rather avoid having any business with these types but from pragmatic standpoint he's not just all talk, his words are backed by his actions and he proved to be arguably the most valuable ally so it's kinda shame I had to fight him (I freed Orpheus).

[Doomvora]

Once Wither's told me mind flayers had no soul I went out of my way to avoid him.

Did a decent job of making the emperor seem like he had one though.

[MASTERCHIEF]

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2) If he could just eat the brain of Orpheus, why didn't he just do it at the start?

Their bodyguards were in the way, and once they were no longer in the way we knew about Orpheus and might react poorly to him eating him unless he can come up with a good enough excuse.

hmm. well he was the defender and had brakes (like when talks to us etc) while attacks kept happening. - so he did have time in between attacks. for after the reveal part - we are the ones dependent on him so he could just eat it and threaten us. in fact, he could have just run away with those powers and freedom. why would he care about how we react to him if he just wants to use us.

btw I am not supporting him or something. just my logical reasoning about plot holes in the story.

[MASTERCHIEF]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Big Bottom Frag:

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there are so many plot-holes.

2) If he could just eat the brain of Orpheus, why didn't he just do it at the start?

He did not have the Orphic Hammer, nor was he able to take out Orpheus' honor guard solo.

Orphic Hammer is not required to eat the brain. about the second t see the above post.

[GARFIELF]

I could forgive the Emperor if he didn't have a Reddit moment the exact second I told him I was freeing Orph and deciding to go throw his lot in with the Netherbrain, despite knowledge that Gale can at any time nuke himself and end him if the final fight goes bad.

[Bloodwest]

Ursprungligen skrivet av MASTERCHIEF:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Mizu:

2) If he could just eat the brain of Orpheus, why didn't he just do it at the start?

Their bodyguards were in the way, and once they were no longer in the way we knew about Orpheus and might react poorly to him eating him unless he can come up with a good enough excuse.

hmm. well he was the defender and had brakes (like when talks to us etc) while attacks kept happening. - so he did have time in between attacks. for after the reveal part - we are the ones dependent on him so he could just eat it and threaten us. in fact, he could have just run away with those powers and freedom. why would he care about how we react to him if he just wants to use us.

btw I am not supporting him or something. just my logical reasoning about plot holes in the story.

He's also pragmatic. Eating up your power source to survival may lead to unforseen consequences and could be regarded as generally wasteful against Elder Brain since player's party power level seemed sufficient. It's realization of that thing being way powerful than expected that forced him to take a drastic measure I think.

[Paul]

He does not want to control the brain. He wants to live and be free. When you free Orpheus, he makes the calculation that he is much more likely to die by staying. That is why he leaves. Even being alive thrall is better, to him, than being dead non-thrall.

[GARFIELF]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Paul:

He does not want to control the brain. He wants to live and be free. When you free Orpheus, he makes the calculation that he is much more likely to die by staying. That is why he leaves. Even being alive thrall is better, to him, than being dead non-thrall.

My issue with this is that it's a woefully bad calculation as he should have knowledge that Gale is a tactical nuke.

[MASTERCHIEF]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Skobone:

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there are so many plot-holes.
1) if he was manipulating us. then where is the big betrayal. or maybe he just wanted to use us and had no reason to harm us, but to be frank, we were depending on him lol.

2) If he could just eat the brain of Orpheus, why didn't he just do it at the start?

3) he just leaves when you support Orpheus. like "WHAT" why. It just does not make sense.

some points to support the emperor:-

1) He is a mind flayer so he has every reason to hide his true identity.

2) he becomes aggressive only when dont cooperate (and gives a lot of chances) ( not cooperating is basically we being stupid ).

3) he killed his friend because his friend wanted to kill him first.

4) It seems he mind controlled his past partner. i did not find it in my play-through. and what was the reason to do it basically? ( the reason is more important ).

5) Orpheus would have killed us, if he had no use for us. i mean he literally says we should have just killed ourselves before. so i can understand why the emperor does not want Orpheus removed. ( i actually support Orpheus statement here, it makes sense )

some points against the emperor.

1) Well he is a mind flayer. they are bad in lore. but the game itself contradicts by showing us osmium ( sorry for the spelling ).

2) Mind flayers don't have a sole it seems. so is he who is he is or is he just a computer with programmed emotions?

3) Well he mind controlled his previous partner it seems. and says to us that he loved
her. i can't, attest to this myself because I did not find it.

I can't think of much else

Conclusion:-
I believe the emperor was a very late addition. My theory is that Daisy was actually supposed to be the tadpole talking to us. and Orpheus was to play the role of the emperor. thinking like this a lot of potholes add up for me.

1) Try the ending where you suggest teaming up as the absolute. If you dissuade him of the risks involved he immediately dominates you along with everyone else.

2) By the time Orpheus' honor guard is eliminated, the jig is up. We know Orpheus is in there and we know he's a mind flayer. He could only justify eating Orpheus if the situation was suitably desperate and we agreed to it, otherwise we would distrust him even more.

3) You can read the rest of the thread for some explanations regarding his sudden shift to the Netherbrain.


---
Regarding Ansur, what he says contradicts Ansur's dialogue. Ansur says he offered the Emperor death, an offer implies consciousness. In a straight up fight, Ansur should overpower the Emperor. Yet Ansur lies dead with a sword lodged in his skull. The Emperor has already shown you false memories at this point.

He dominated Stelmane for power. Immediately after he reveals it to you, and you try to call him out on it, he says it doesn't matter, because you're his "puppet". His motivation is power. Notice that the reason he gives for resisting Ansur in the first place was that he was craved to use the powers his newfound abilities granted him. What did he do with those abilities immediately after he was free from Ansur? He dominated a politician and used her to become a leader within a terrorist organization. The Knights of the Shield are Devil-Worshipers in case you didn't know, your character doesn't either since it's top secret stuff and he obviously doesn't tell you. And not only did he dominate Stelmane, he did this: first he induced her stroke, partially paralyzing her. He then controlled all of her actions for 13 years, with her consciousness trapped in her own body the entire time.

It's true Orpheus would rather we had died to his honor guard than his honor guard dying by our hands. That doesn't mean he would indiscriminately kill us had he always had autonomy. Anyone would rather their comrades of thousands of years not die. Remember, he willingly sacrifices his body and his soul to become a mind flayer if you refuse to make that sacrifice. He had all the power to force that sacrifice on you, on anyone. Not only does he kills himself, he kills his afterlife, all so you don't have to. You, someone he should hate.


About Omeluum: arcanist illithids have been established for decades, and Omeluum isn't even the first mind flayer in the society of brilliance. Mind Flayers are not invariably evil. Especially not independent mind flayers. Most are, don't get me wrong, but it's not a rule. No one even makes that claim in the game. The difference between Omeluum and the Emperor is night and day. Omeluum doesn't hide any part of his nature from you. He freely admits that he partnered with a lich. He is upfront that, while he is not commiting murder like his brethren, he is not perfect. He doesn't claim to be his former host, nor does he claim to be altruistic. He explains his moral position logically. The Emperor, on the other hand, constantly attempts to appeal to your emotions. He is not Balduran, he is the tadpole who ate Balduran. But the way he frames his stories he would have you believe he is a continuation of his former host. He attempts to sway you with false memories. He tries to form a connection by drawing equivalence between you and himself. He tries to appeal to your sexual desires. He tries to convince you to undergo ceremorphosis, a process which kills both your body and your soul for a sake of your tadpole. Scrutinize what he actually says, he only promises that you will remain independent after your transformation, not that you would remain yourself. Why? Because this: if you, an adventurer like Balduran, willingly choose to follow in the footsteps of the Emperor, it justifies his entire existence. That power is worth sacrificing everything. And when none of that works, he threatens you, he belittles you, he taunts you. Anything to keep you in line.

As for the business with souls. Soul is not the same thing as consciousness. The Emperor has a brain, like you. But that's where it ends. His existence will not continue after death. But just to reiterate: when a tadpole eats its host and becomes a mindflayer, the host's soul is obliterated at well. Everyone who is infected and transformed is denied an afterlife.

1) i agree. but i can't help myself think that endings are bad and have a lot of missing. like even if we take over we just suddenly become the most evil of all.
2)we are the ones dependent on him so he could just eat it and threaten us. in fact, he could have just run away with those powers and freedom. why would he care about how we react to him if he just wants to use us.
3)it would helpful if you can link me something.

i will have to look into that sentence once more then. i did not read that deep into it. all i remember is that Ansur wanted to kill the emperor while he was sleeping.

the first thing Orpheus says is that he wants to kill us. and he sacrifices himself because he has no choice - for his people. and how could he force us to do his bidding? yes, he can transform us but he cant make us follow his orders.

ok agreed.

oww ok.

and thanks for taking the time to write such a big article.

[MASTERCHIEF]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Bloodwest:

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hmm. well he was the defender and had brakes (like when talks to us etc) while attacks kept happening. - so he did have time in between attacks. for after the reveal part - we are the ones dependent on him so he could just eat it and threaten us. in fact, he could have just run away with those powers and freedom. why would he care about how we react to him if he just wants to use us.

btw I am not supporting him or something. just my logical reasoning about plot holes in the story.

He's also pragmatic. Eating up your power source to survival may lead to unforseen consequences and could be regarded as generally wasteful against Elder Brain since player's party power level seemed sufficient. It's realization of that thing being way powerful than expected that forced him to take a drastic measure I think.

he eats it, he becomes the power source right? so now he is in a better position to bargain. so it is a huge benefit for him.

[Precache]

I think you can trust him on macro level, making decisions for the good of all. Which, if you know the lore, is consistent with being Illithid. They see themselves as the heroes, here to save the rest of us from our own chaotic nature.

The big difference with him is that he sees the Elder Brains (which control all Illthid civilization) as being evil too (probably because they remove all free will). I think his ultimate goal is to talk a bunch of people into becoming mind flayers willingly, and then start his own society/family.

In my playthrough, I never consumed a tadpole and avoided using mine unless it was to save a life. I got the feeling that Balduran was feeling lonely and isolated, and desperately wanted other (non-elder-brain-controlled) Illthids for companionship. I can't really fault him for that. But no way in hells am I signing up.

[MASTERCHIEF]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Precache:

I think you can trust him on macro level, making decisions for the good of all. Which, if you know the lore, is consistent with being Illithid. They see themselves as the heroes, here to save the rest of us from our own chaotic nature.

The big difference with him is that he sees the Elder Brains (which control all Illthid civilization) as being evil too (probably because they remove all free will). I think his ultimate goal is to talk a bunch of people into becoming mind flayers willingly, and then start his own society/family.

In my playthrough, I never consumed a tadpole and avoided using mine unless it was to save a life. I got the feeling that Balduran was feeling lonely and isolated, and desperately wanted other (non-elder-brain-controlled) Illthids for companionship. I can't really fault him for that. But no way in hells am I signing up.

these are some logical explanations.

[GrandMajora]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Mizu:

He still seemed to be in control of himself when he tried to pick a fight with me and got his ass kicked. The Netherbrain isn't omnipotent or omniscient, it was too focused on us and our attempt to use the crown to defeat it to have attention to spare for him. Finding a place to hide from it would have been hard, but not impossible. Certainly he had a better chance of doing so then successfully walking right up to and saying 'pinky promise to not enslave me again if I help you fight off the guys coming to gank you?'.

Also, what part of that argument you just made lends itself towards The Emperor deciding to openly oppose the only people who had a shot at stopping the Netherbrain and helping it when it tries to fend us off from defeating it? There is no possible good outcome for him if he helps the brain defeat us.

The Netherbrain knew about him the entire time. She openly reveals that she allowed him to slip free from her control, so that he would enact his plan to defeat the chosen and try to dominate the brain.

The only reasons she never resumed control is because 1) - allowing him to walk free was part of her plan the whole time, and 2) - Orpheus had the power to disrupt hivemind connections.

The Emperor knew that as soon as Orpheus was free, and he could no longer siphon his power to protect himself, he would be totally powerless to resist The Absolute's influence; so he may as well join her, rather than fight a battle he saw no hope of winning. Remember, mind flayers don't have souls and can not feel emotions. They do not place their faith in blind luck, hope and the power of friendship to get them through difficult situations.

Prior to the Netherbrain's evolution, the Emperor was under the impression that the stones would have been enough to dominate her, and Orpheus was confident that he could have defeated her without the aid of an illithid. Had he been freed earlier, Orpheus would have immediately turned his powers upon the Emperor, before expecting your party to submit themselves to a 'mercy killing' at the hands of his honor guard.

[Bloodwest]

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He's also pragmatic. Eating up your power source to survival may lead to unforseen consequences and could be regarded as generally wasteful against Elder Brain since player's party power level seemed sufficient. It's realization of that thing being way powerful than expected that forced him to take a drastic measure I think.

he eats it, he becomes the power source right? so now he is in a better position to bargain. so it is a huge benefit for him.

Maybe he was wary of possible consequences. This guy doesn't exactly like to share his genuine thoughts.

[Straybow]

One way or another, he is highly manipulative, which makes so much about what he says open to reasonable doubt.
At best I could only ever imagine him an an ally of convenience, nothing more.