Thoughts on the Dream Guardian. (SPOILERS)

[FishSouls]

Big spoilers for the Dream Guardian. Only read if you've finished the game.

So I finished the game about two weeks ago now and am actually in the process of reinstalling for another play-through. However, I've been going backwards and forwards on whether I should, whether it's too early and if I should wait for a definitive edition especially now when all the cut content has been discovered. While I love the base game as is and 100% believe it deserves all the praise it's getting there is a small element of dissatisfaction that's been nagging at me and you've guessed it, it's to do with the dream guardian.

Knowing that they were a replacement for Daisy (why do people call them Daisy?) I never trusted my Dream Guardian. I played along out of necessity but had zero intention of shoving more tadpoles in my head and planned on actively betraying them when I got the chance. This started to change when the thought occurred to me that the Dream Guardian wasn't Daisy. They were something new and while Daisy was blatantly dragging me down to the dark side, maybe the Dream Guardian was never going to betray me or at least only would if I played a certain way.

This idea came to me immediately after I agreed to kill them for Vlaakith. Cue Dream Guardian giving me a disappointed look and saying that maybe she'd chosen poorly after all. That hurt a little, especially as I'd accidentally made her attractive. I hadn't meant to honest. I live in the UK and have slow internet so it was half 8 by the time it was ready and I just wanted to get into the game so didn't spend a lot of time customising her appearance but inadvertently made her gorgeous. So I'm already feeling bad and am starting to think I've mucked up so I tell her I'm only here to talk (although I still intend on killing her if I dislike what she says) and then she pops down on one knee, summons a sword and offers it to me, telling me to kill her if I don't trust her. At this point I'm stumped. I don't know what to do but I'm loving the dilemma. Before I wasn't all that interested in the Dream Guardians plot but now it's really interesting. On the one hand, she's been hiding a lot from me (who she really is etc) but now I'm wondering if she was ever going to betray me to begin with? That while this is a blatant gamble on her part it feels genuine, that she needs me to trust her or the whole world is doomed.

So I decided to trust her and things got really interesting and I'm glad I didn't kill her. Until Act 3. I warned you before but I'll warn you again. Massive spoilers!!!

The reveal that the Dream Guardian was a Mindflayer called the Emperor was fascinating and immediately disappointing to me. All that trust is gone. I trusted Ommeleum but he never lied to me. How could I trust a Mindflayer that had disguised its true identity for so long? A Mindflayer that had a golden opportunity to fess up and build a genuine bond of trust but had instead doubled down on their lies. We're right back where we started now. I'm playing along with it but I have no intention of ever trusting it and actively intend to betray it before it can betray me. In fact, it's more cynical than before as I now start to make plans to betray it. I accept Rapheal's deal for the Orphic hammer, although I fully intend to betray him too, despite knowing that the Emperor isn't going to like that.

Learning that the Emperor was Baldurian was also incredibly weird. I still don't know what to think about all that. More fleshing out Is required maybe?

Jump to the final encounter and cue the moment when I realise that the Emperor was truly on my side the whole time and really did want to destroy the Nether Brain. In fairness, I can't even say it turned on me when it left after I refused to allow it to absorb Orpheus. The Emperor was right, its survival depended on it. Orpheus would have insisted on its death, whether before or after the battle was won it wouldn't matter. Orpheus would not suffer it to live. That said it also undermined all its motivations up until that point (staying free of the brain and all that)

I just find this a bit dissatisfying. The more that was revealed about the Dream Guardian the more weird it all became and the less interested I was. I brought up the cut content earlier because I'm wondering if that's partly to blame for it in a case similar to Karlach, Halsin and Minthara not having anything interesting to do in the final act.

That said it doesn't change the way I feel about the game nor did it affect how I felt about act 3. In a playthrough of 93 hours 44 of them were spent in act 3 and minor framerate issues aside and the lasting effects of cut content causing weird bugs and random dialogue I had a blast in the city.

Kinda curious if I was the only one who felt this way about the Dream Guardian and whether people think it would have been better if we had both Daisy and the Dream Guardian playing the devil and angel on our shoulders like the cut content posts allege.

[jonnin]

I think its on par for a mind flayer heavy story. Those things are just weird -- they have a collective/hive mind but individuality as well, with rebels that disconnect from the mind(s) and intrigue within their colonies (often over magic artifacts / lore / etc). One may well try to thwart what another is doing and/or even go against the big brain itself, so its more or less in line with what has gone before. And we have seen mindflayers who form strong bonds and alliances with humanoid races/ material plane folks.

That leads me back to your thoughts... the guardian may be your savior and close ally for now, but I can't say trusting it forever is wise. That is a tough call. As noted, some of them do form mutually beneficial bonds that last for lifetimes ... this may be such a case, or the thing may betray you the first time it things that is useful to its purposes or future. It certainly does not like/love you. But ... maybe... you can work together. Or maybe you should kill it with fire :)

[lawjax]

I personally thought that, given the premise, it was a logical conclusion and I had fostered some suspicions of my own as to why I was creating a guardian in the very first place. Does it not make sense that an intelligent entity capable of exploring the corridors of your own mind would not perhaps appeal to you in the form of an ideal, created by your own hands? To me it is a classical approach to deception and temptation (given fall) - the dark little voice inside your mind that whispers sweet nothings in your ear, enticing you to succumb to something that you barely understand.

[FishSouls]

Originally posted by lawjax:

I personally thought that, given the premise, it was a logical conclusion and I had fostered some suspicions of my own as to why I was creating a guardian in the very first place. Does it not make sense that an intelligent entity capable of exploring the corridors of your own mind would not perhaps appeal to you in the form of an ideal, created by your own hands? To me it is a classical approach to deception and temptation (given fall) - the dark little voice inside your mind that whispers sweet nothings in your ear, enticing you to succumb to something that you barely understand.

Yeah, I get that and it was what I was expecting. But after the wild ride it felt like it all came undone when its true nature was revealed. After The Emperor never really made much of an effort imo to regain my trust.

None of it was bad just a bit unsatisfying.

[lawjax]

I view it as the equivalency of an investment not yielding a return, or getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar - when the jig is up, the jig is up. Even the Emperor understands it is likely futile to continue with a charade.

As a sort of shoddy but comparable scenario, it is reminiscent of Anakin discovering Palpatine's true nature, but this occurred approximately 15 years after their paths intersected, and only well after Palpatine had cultivated his fatherly, mentor-like relationship with young Skywalker. Comparatively speaking, the events in Baldur's Gate 3 unfold in a far shorter timeframe and there really would be no reason to continue under the Emperor unless you were into the benefits it seemed to offer, and by then you would be well acquainted with them so there really is little left for the Emperor to do to persuade you.

[FishSouls]

Originally posted by lawjax:

I view it as the equivalency of an investment not yielding a return, or getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar - when the jig is up, the jig is up. Even the Emperor understands it is likely futile to continue with a charade.

As a sort of shoddy but comparable scenario, it is reminiscent of Anakin discovering Palpatine's true nature, but this occurred approximately 15 years after their paths intersected, and only well after Palpatine had cultivated his fatherly, mentor-like relationship with young Skywalker. Comparatively speaking, the events in Baldur's Gate 3 unfold in a far shorter timeframe and there really would be no reason to continue under the Emperor unless you were into the benefits it seemed to offer, and by then you would be well acquainted with them so there really is little left for the Emperor to do to persuade you.

Very true. A mystery is intriguing until it's no longer a mystery. The Anakin Palpatine scenario does fit nicely. I feel like the Emperor either needs more content or less.

[Morgoth]

The emperor leaving to join the Netherbrain if you want to free Orpheus makes 0 sense from the games own narrative since the emperor wanted desperately to avoid being enslaved by the brain again and the moment he left the prism that would happen.

[Lamp]

Yeah the 'seduction angle' that Daisy had was very clunky considering we know there's a tadpole in our head. If we *didn't* know though, just woke up on the beach and the tadpole aspect was more secretive- whole different story.

What would you think if you woke up somewhere with no memory of how you got there and suddenly started developing powers and speaking to an entity in your dreams? It'd be 100x more convincing.

[Mad Max]

It also makes the theme song of the game have no meaning. "Down, Down, down by the river" was supposed to a reference to the original temptation of the worm (Daisy) to have you succumb and go down the Illithid Route. But now it just doesn't make sense.

[Dragontoast]

The unsatisfying MacGuffin style plot only gets worse if you ignore Shadowheart. She will deus ex machina when you get pinned down by the absolute voice in Act 1. If you still ignore her, after the party scene she will be gone forever and you will magically get the Macguffin upon entering the next zone.

Originally posted by Morgoth:

The emperor leaving to join the Netherbrain if you want to free Orpheus makes 0 sense from the games own narrative since the emperor wanted desperately to avoid being enslaved by the brain again and the moment he left the prism that would happen.

Yeah, when he showed up AND the dream guardians it was such a "wtf?!" thing.
When he sides with you those guardians do not exist in any capacity and all other interactions implied they were simply illusions intended to manipulate us.

[wei270]

i feel the original concept of daisy fits the concept of Ceremorphosis much better, putting emporer as baulderian feels less relevant to us a player group who either want to get the parasite out, or on a path use maximuze the use of the parasite for our own gain.

the emperor only fix in well with the story for a run where the main objective is to save the town a the cost of self sacrifice, but that aspect of the game is only a very small part of the game.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by FishSouls:

The reveal that the Dream Guardian was a Mindflayer called the Emperor was fascinating and immediately disappointing to me. All that trust is gone. I trusted Ommeleum but he never lied to me. How could I trust a Mindflayer that had disguised its true identity for so long? A Mindflayer that had a golden opportunity to fess up and build a genuine bond of trust but had instead doubled down on their lies. We're right back where we started now. I'm playing along with it but I have no intention of ever trusting it and actively intend to betray it before it can betray me. In fact, it's more cynical than before as I now start to make plans to betray it. I accept Rapheal's deal for the Orphic hammer, although I fully intend to betray him too, despite knowing that the Emperor isn't going to like that.

Well, let's see...

Considering the mind flayers are the ones who abducted you and put the tadpole in your head in the first place, and everybody else who has one seems to believe the tadpoles and powers they grant are a gift from their new goddess...

How do you think your character would logically react to a mind flayer showing up and encouraging them to load up on as many tadpoles as they could get their hands on? Doesn't seem like that kind of introduction is liable to get a welcoming reception out of you.

---------------------

Also, if you pay very close attention to the loot you come across in game, there are subtle red flags which point to the idea that the dream guardian is not being entirely upfront with you, and may be omitting the truth.

Withers tells us that mind flayers have no souls, and considering he was entombed within a shrine of Jergal, I think he would be a more reliable source on that particular subject.

You can also find a journal which talks about how Stelmane was apparently going crazy, or behaving in an unusual manner, and Wyll even comments on noticing her sudden change in behavior over the years. It turns out that 'the Emperor' was actually mind controlling her the whole time, and their relationship was not one built on mutual respect.

Finally, if you're just constantly obstinate with them and refuse to take them at their word, the mind flayer reveals that you are nothing more than a disposable pawn to them. They need your help to stop the elder brain, but they don't give a damn about your health and safety beyond achieving that goal.

If you refuse to embrace the tadpoles, they berate you for being overly attached to such a pathetic and inferior form, and say that if they have to do so, they will force you to become a mind flayer.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Morgoth:

The emperor leaving to join the Netherbrain if you want to free Orpheus makes 0 sense from the games own narrative since the emperor wanted desperately to avoid being enslaved by the brain again and the moment he left the prism that would happen.

It's because the emperor was protecting itself by siphoning Orpheus' power to disrupt hivemind connections. A protection that Orpheus would never extend to him willingly. Once you free the prince, the emperor realizes that he's basically ♥♥♥♥♥♥ either way, so he may as well join the seemingly unstoppable Netherbrain, rather than submit himself to Orpheus' wrath.

If you have Orpheus become a mind flayer in your stead, he tolerates his existence just long enough to destroy the netherbrain, before passing his revolution on to Lae'zel and asking you to give him an honorable death.

Orpheus is a Gith, who's people absolutely despise Illithids with every fiber of their being and have made it their mission in life to hunt their species to extinction. Orpheus would never cooperate with the Emperor after everything he did.

[45ay3asdasd]

The emporer is not a trustworthy character and he is not your friend

[UkrainianDoomer]

I think the Guardian was very well done in general.
You never know if you can (or can not) trust the Guardian until the very very end (and I don't mean Act 3, I mean literally pre-final battle) and it's what makes you constantly question yourself and your decisions.

On one hand the Guardian does a lot to protect you and you see the proof that this happens especially with Vlaakith. But on the other hand you also get proof of Guardian hiding stuff from you and, of course, the reveal.

You may even think "well freeing Gith sounds like a great idea" but then you learn of Emperor's true identity and what he sacrificed for Baldur's Gate and suddenly the choice becomes hard to make.

This is one of those things Larian did good.

[Action Man]

I never played in EA, and stayed away from spoilers. I thought the Dream Guardian was the tadpole for most of Act 1. Going to the creche proved otherwise.

I had the scene where DG offered me the sword to kill it, and I declined. Although I'm pretty sure if you kill DG there, you die as well. You no longer have protection.

The reveal at the start of A3, while surprising, didn't change my overall lack of trust for the Emperor. I accept it hid what it was because I can't really see a way for anyone to trust a mind flayer, given our situation. It did make me realize how little it actually regards the party. We're tools to it. Granted, the Emperor has a vested interest in keeping its tools in good condition, but it never reciprocates the trust it expects of you. When it loses the only leverage it has - ceromorphosis - it immediately betrays you when you won't just do what it says.

The Emperor is not Baldur. It's a worm that ate Baldur's brain. Based on knowledge in game, mind flayers don't have a soul (from Withers, and I'm willing to believe him). It does make me wonder if ALL mind flayers have 'imprints' of the person they ate, but since they are all enthralled by an elder brain, they never get to assert that personality.

I'm not so sure Orpheus would immediately kill the Emperor. He definitely has reason to, but in one dialogue with him, Orpheus shows himself to be much more honest and honorable than the Emperor. I can imagine working out an alliance between all three, but the Emperor isn't going to gamble its future on it, which is why he bails.