Rogue / Gloomstalker build for tactician mode

[Empu]

Hello, my bard main is at the start of act 3, and i've heard there are some bugs to be ironed out, thus i've decided to pause for now until patch 1 is dropped and re-roll a rogue+gloomstalker character!

If you know any ways to improve upon my build, please let me know!

I'll be going as a lightfoot halfling, melee focused (bow as backup weapon) and will be playing on the tactician mode difficulty.

with the criminal background. Attribute allocation as follows:
Strength 8
Dexterity 17
Constitution 14
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 14
Charisma 12

I know I could probably dump intelligence down to 8, but for roleplaying reasons, i'd like to avoid that.

Is 14 wisdom enough for the ranger spells or should i go 17 dexterity and 15 wisdom and then use the +2 attribute feat to even them out once I reach that point? I'm not a big fan of feeling forced into using that feat since it feels way too generic for me, and i'd rather use another feat but i'm worried about spells not hitting like they should if my wisdom is too low!

For my skills I wanted to be able to do all the rogue-y things as well as be the party face focusing on intimidation and deception (thus the criminal background, I want to think that 5 points into sleight of hand is plenty enough) with good perception for dialogue checks and finding those pesky traps etc.

Sleight of hand +5
Stealth +7
Insight +4
Perception +6
Deception +3
Intimidation +3
As for leveling, I'm thinking along these lines:

1) Rogue
2) Rogue
3) Rogue (assassin subclass)
4) Ranger (Bounty hunter, wasteland wanderer: poison)
5) Ranger (two-weapon fighting)
6) Ranger (Subclass: Gloom-stalker)
7) Ranger (feat: Athlete, where i'll place 1 point into dexterity and also gain 50% jump distance)
8) Ranger (extra attack)

And at this point either go full rogue and 1 more feat or fighter for a couple of levels to gain 1 more attack!

I guess it's a fairly basic rogue/gloomstalker build, but what do you guys think?

Any input or advice/tips for improving my ideas?
Thanks!

[Clive Hawkins]

How I plan to build my next Astarion (feel free to take ideas)

- High Elf (but Halfling is perfect for your idea.)
- You don't need Wisdom on a Ranger multiclass. Ensnaring Strike is "fine" but it uses your Action and Bonus Action (horrible.) Better to use Longstrider, Enhance Leap, Hunter's Mark, and Pass Without a Trace which don't use Wisdom.

Gloom Stalker
Level 1: Urban Tracker (Sleight of Hand so you can still do the sneaky stuff)
Level 2: Archery fighting style
Level 3: Gloomstalker to give your Halfling Superior Darkvision, Initiative, and a free attack
Level 4: Sharpshooter Feat (Dual-wielding Hand Crossbows will give you some of the highest DPS in the game. Each Action and Bonus Action now has +10 damage)
Level 5: Extra attack

Thief
Level 6: Expertise in Sleight of Hand / Stealth + Other skills
Level 7: Dash as a Bonus Action.
Level 8: Second Bonus Action each turn (crazy dps with hand crossbows)

Battlemaster
Level 9: Defense fighting style
Level 10: Action Surge
Level 11: Trip Attack, Menacing Attack, and Push Attack each with +1d8 damage
Level 12: Dexterity +2

[Shells]

A ranger with STR 8 is subpar. Have fun starting to jump; also carry weight is a thing if you don't go human. You are way better offer dumping CHA to 8, take STR 10 and push either CON or WIS to 16. INT can stay at 8, too, since there is an item early on that solves this.

Also go Ranger 5 first. Delaying your 2nd attack is the worst thing you can do. If you go Ranger 7 this is better anyways in regards of getting proficiency in 4 saving throws. Rogue is only worth 3 or 4 levels for the ASI/feat. It yields nothing important afterwards while Ranger is worth it every level. A potent MC is Ranger 5, Rogue 4, Fighter (Battle Master) 3 to get 2 fighting styles and all the other nifty stuff BM Fighter has to offer.

[Empu]

Originally posted by Clive Hawkins:

How I plan to build my next Astarion (feel free to take ideas)

"- High Elf (but Halfling is perfect for your idea.)
- You don't need Wisdom on a Ranger multiclass. Ensnaring Strike is "fine" but it uses your Action and Bonus Action (horrible.) Better to use Longstrider, Enhance Leap, Hunter's Mark, and Pass Without a Trace which don't use Wisdom. "

Good point, though perception uses wisdom else i'd probably move those points to charisma!

"Thief
Level 6: Expertise in Sleight of Hand / Stealth + Other skills
Level 7: Dash as a Bonus Action.
Level 8: Second Bonus Action each turn (crazy dps with hand crossbows)"

Do rogues not get sleight of hand for free, and they do not stack?
Looks like a beast build, I wanna focus a bit more on being melee, battlemaster looks solid, i'll decide if I pick that route once I get there :)

Thanks!

[Empu]

Originally posted by Shells:

A ranger with STR 8 is subpar. Have fun starting to jump; also carry weight is a thing if you don't go human. You are way better offer dumping CHA to 8, take STR 10 and push either CON or WIS to 16. INT can stay at 8, too, since there is an item early on that solves this.

While true that jump distance will be abyssmal, the athlete feat will fix this by giving me 50% more jumping distance. Also scrolls/potions and spells that I gain from gloom-stalker will improve my jumping even more!

Constitution I feel like I can keep it low, since my high initiative will make me go first most of the time and bonus actions will ensure that I can stealth, carry weight is for Carlach to deal with :)

I'll not be using that item to increase my intelligence, but instead focus on items that increase my movement length!

[Clive Hawkins]

STR 8 is fine as you'll have the Enhanced Jump spell that doesn't use spell slots when cast outside of battle. Athlete? Even better ♥

Good point with Perception. You could take Expertise in Perception instead of Stealth since you already have Advantage with Stealth checks and possibly Pass Without a Trace :3

Your Criminal Background is what's giving you Sleight of Hand for free I believe. So you can avoid Urban Tracker. They don't stack ♪

[Shells]

Keeping up concentration is a thing in this game. Concentration breaks every minute, so protecting it via CON is important in my experience.

Think again in regards of Athlete. You probably only get 2 ASIs/feats. You most probably will want to have +2 DEX (+1 from Ethel) == 20 around level 5 and Sharpshooter as the first two picks or your character will stay behind in terms of capability.

There is nothing as Criminal Background. You take Urban Tracker at character creation to get Sleight.

Oh, and do not fall victim to the Assassin Rogue trap. The Thief Rogue is way better in terms of manoeuverability and damage (except for the first combat turn). Lots of the battles take longer than one turn and Assassin gives nothing after round one.

[Empu]

Originally posted by Shells:

Keeping up concentration is a thing in this game. Concentration breaks every minute, so protecting it via CON is important in my experience.

Think again in regards of Athlete. You probably only get 2 ASIs/feats. You most probably will want to have +2 DEX (+1 from Ethel) == 20 around level 5 and Sharpshooter as the first two picks or your character will stay behind in terms of capability.

There is nothing as Criminal Background. You take Urban Tracker at character creation to get Sleight.

I won't be using any spells requiring concentration though?
You think having 18 dexterity vs 20 will break the character, i'll be getting a 2nd feat by level 10 or 12 at latest, where i'd get the last +2 points to dexterity for a total of 20.

Sharpshooter admittedly is a strong feat, but i'm making a melee oriented build!

I'm not sure what you mean with there is nothing as criminal background?

[Revan619]

5 gloom/3 assassin can make your rogue do some good damage first round with two hand cross bows.

But 5 hunter with colossus slayer and 3 thief just vastly outdamages it consistently as it doesn't lose its damage after the first round. You get four attacks standard. Six hasted and if you go into fighter 2 you can get eight for one round. Can easily battle master for manuevers.

I'm still deciding if I want 8 ranger and 4 rogue for the feat or 9/3 for the extra profeciency and level 3 spells.

[Proto Baggins]

14 Wis is plenty for Ranger spells, you don't need to shoot for 15-16. The best ranger spells are self-buffs like Hunter's Mark that work the same regardless of your wisdom. If you're high on taking a couple of fighter levels for action surge then consider taking fighter at lvl 1 for heavy armour proficiency. Though you will give up rogue/ranger skill proficiencies, so it's up to you which you consider more valuable.

[Empu]

Originally posted by Revan619:

5 gloom/3 assassin can make your rogue do some good damage first round with two hand cross bows.

But 5 hunter with colossus slayer and 3 thief just vastly outdamages it consistently as it doesn't lose its damage after the first round. You get four attacks standard. Six hasted and if you go into fighter 2 you can get eight for one round. Can easily battle master for manuevers.

I'm still deciding if I want 8 ranger and 4 rogue for the feat or 9/3 for the extra profeciency and level 3 spells.

ohh, might have to check out the might have to check out the other subclasses too, thanks for heads up!

Originally posted by Proto Baggins:

14 Wis is plenty for Ranger spells, you don't need to shoot for 15-16. The best ranger spells are self-buffs like Hunter's Mark that work the same regardless of your wisdom. If you're high on taking a couple of fighter levels for action surge then consider taking fighter at lvl 1 for heavy armour proficiency. Though you will give up rogue/ranger skill proficiencies, so it's up to you which you consider more valuable.

That makes sense, thanks! :)

[Empu]

Originally posted by Clive Hawkins:

STR 8 is fine as you'll have the Enhanced Jump spell that doesn't use spell slots when cast outside of battle. Athlete? Even better ♥

Good point with Perception. You could take Expertise in Perception instead of Stealth since you already have Advantage with Stealth checks and possibly Pass Without a Trace :3

Your Criminal Background is what's giving you Sleight of Hand for free I believe. So you can avoid Urban Tracker. They don't stack ♪

Actuallly sounds like a solid idea to take perception expertise!

[Airatome]

Originally posted by Revan619:

5 gloom/3 assassin can make your rogue do some good damage first round with two hand cross bows.

But 5 hunter with colossus slayer and 3 thief just vastly outdamages it consistently as it doesn't lose its damage after the first round. You get four attacks standard. Six hasted and if you go into fighter 2 you can get eight for one round. Can easily battle master for manuevers.

I'm still deciding if I want 8 ranger and 4 rogue for the feat or 9/3 for the extra profeciency and level 3 spells.

You can find some of my build posts in my history but, I agree with the above.

Caveat: I am not sure how well this holds up on Tactician but so far in my playthroughs Gloomstalker seems to be a trap if you aren't choosing it for thematic or Roleplaying purposes and don't plan on going Rogue. The Gloomstalker gives you nothing the Rogue and Hunter can't do better (except for that whole turning invisible thing, but that's why you'll be bringing a spellcaster who can just cast Invisibility/Greater Invisibility on you...right?)

The damage output is just largely outclassed. It works like this:

The Gloomstalker had an ability that allows it to strike a single target with a single extra attack just once at the beginning of combat for a bit of additional damage. Period.

The Hunter subclass allows you to deal an extra 1d8 per ROUND to any creature that isn't at full HP. As a Two Weapon Fighting expert with the proper fighting style and Dual Wielder Feat you will be able to use 1d8 weapons in each hand that grant you +1 AC and both deal full damage adding your dexterity modifier. So you won't need the bonus from the Thief Rogue subclass, you'll be taking enough swings with the attack action, extra attack, and offhand bonus action attack.

So a full attack may look something like

1d8+dex + 1d6 Hunter's Mark damage
Another swing (at level 5) for 1d8+dex + 1d6 Hunter's Mark damage
And then a bonus action followup attack for 1d8+dex + 1d6 Hunter's Mark damage

Add in Sneak attack if it applies every round.

Add in 1d8 Colossus Slayer damage if it aplies each round.

Add in crits from Assassinate from the Assassin Rogue subclass if you can get it to apply during the first round which leads to insane criticals that double all the damage dice included from weapon damage, Hunter's Mark damage, sneak attack damage, Colossus Slayer damage. 3+ auto crits is wonderful on a surprised enemy.

Add in Haste for even more.

You'll thank us for this over the Gloomstalker / Thief build.
Gloomstalker is neat and all, but pours out less damage.

Unfortunately because the level cap is 12, there's only so far we can take this multiclass, but start with Ranger and sub into rogue, not the other way around. Get Ranger to 5 at a minimum, and take Rogue as far as you can after you decide where to stop your ranger levels at.

Hunter and Assassin are both part of the PHB and basic information you can find so look at published resources or those available online to see when Hunter Rangers and Assassin Rogue unlock each ability. Rogues have more ASI/Feat choices than other classes (except fighter that gets the most).

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Ranger 5, Rogue 4, Fighter 3