There’s really no options for Holy Paladins

[Gønzö]

Every companion choice beyond maybe Halsin is just terrible. And druids aren’t what I’m looking for as a 4th. Astarion and Gale are obvious “No”. I’ll take Sir Fuzzalump and Asian ninja woman tyvm. Shadowheart is a cultist for an evil God so not really a viable choice. And Lae’zel is Githyanki. Weirdly the Githyanki are at least lawful evil so we share some things in common but they are so one dimensionally evil you can’t even side with them. I wanted to ride a badass dragon over the shadowlands but nope, thats not an option. She also has some of the worst advice. Karlach is devil spawn so again no. The “dream visitor” has major mary sue plot armor so no real choice there but honestly why would a Paladin follow their advice?. I guess the writing isn’t so deep and surface level is what you get. I really wish there could be a “Good” option to progress the story and have options for getting the old BG companions earlier on. Bummer.

[Khryst]

Originally posted by Gønzö:

I understand Karlach is “good” natured but tieflings are an unholy union between a devil and human. I don’t think a Holy Paladin would ever party with such an abomination with goat horns, red skin, cloven hooves and smelling constantly of fire and brimstone.

wrong again.

In fact most Tiefling's parents aren't even aware there is any devil blood at all in their family tree.

it's basically a recessive trait that pops up (as both parents can be completely human/elf/halfelf/etc.) and the child is born a tiefling. So only a "lawful stupid" paladin would really hate them just for existing. It would be a "sins of the father, blame the child" type of situation.

Which is why most tieflings get treated like ♥♥♥♥, and end up falling into an "evil" alignment because they are treated like crap for something their great great great grandmother did.

[steelcoresoviet]

Originally posted by Gønzö:

I understand Karlach is “good” natured but tieflings are an unholy union between a devil and human. I don’t think a Holy Paladin would ever party with such an abomination with goat horns, red skin, cloven hooves and smelling constantly of fire and brimstone.

That's partially incorrect, tieflings are not cambions. They are a race of humans distorted by their ancient contact with the lower planes. Karlach's parents are two tieflings.

Of course she has been to Hell, but so have many champions of light.

[Noctoculus]

Originally posted by kblaze13:

wrong again.

In fact most Tiefling's parents aren't even aware there is any devil blood at all in their family tree.

Pretty sure they retconned that... that's why there's a whole community of Tieflings that have Tiefling babies and siblings.

[fmalfeas]

This 'holy paladin' this and that...

Paladins of Torm will smite anything they think is evil, no questions asked, no mercy or quarter given...they are holy.

Paladins of Illmater will try to offer redemption to EVERYTHING. They are holy.

Paladins of Lathander offer a second chance to anything except undead (who are annihilated without hesitation). They are holy.

Paladins of Sune revel in beauty, love, and the pleasures of the flesh. They are holy.

Paladins of Tempus care nothing for any of that, and live for the good fight. They are holy.

Paladins of Bane enforce the law unwaveringly, and tolerate no opposition to their church's dogma. They will strip all freedom from the area they protect, but they actually will deliver safety...so long as you obey the law. They are the servants of the god of Tyranny, Hatred, and Fear. And they sound more like the 'holy paladin' you keep going on about, judgemental, harsh, merciless, and unwilling to even consider another viewpoint for a moment.

[Toblm]

Originally posted by Gønzö:

Every companion choice beyond maybe Halsin is just terrible. And druids aren’t what I’m looking for as a 4th. Astarion and Gale are obvious “No”. I’ll take Sir Fuzzalump and Asian ninja woman tyvm. Shadowheart is a cultist for an evil God so not really a viable choice. And Lae’zel is Githyanki. Weirdly the Githyanki are at least lawful evil so we share some things in common but they are so one dimensionally evil you can’t even side with them. I wanted to ride a badass dragon over the shadowlands but nope, thats not an option. She also has some of the worst advice. Karlach is devil spawn so again no. The “dream visitor” has major mary sue plot armor so no real choice there but honestly why would a Paladin follow their advice?. I guess the writing isn’t so deep and surface level is what you get. I really wish there could be a “Good” option to progress the story and have options for getting the old BG companions earlier on. Bummer.

And people wonder why Paladins get flack for playing as lawful stupid...

[Khryst]

Originally posted by Noctoculus:

Originally posted by kblaze13:

wrong again.

In fact most Tiefling's parents aren't even aware there is any devil blood at all in their family tree.

Pretty sure they retconned that... that's why there's a whole community of Tieflings that have Tiefling babies and siblings.

nope PHB still says that's where they came from, just there's enough now they have formed communities, and that Tieflings give birth to Tieflings. PHB also states that a Tieflings bloodline doesn't affect their personality. They are gifted with magic from the infernal realms but chart their own course.

If anything they retconned the idea that Tieflings lean more towards the evil alignments.

[Gønzö]

Originally posted by kblaze13:

Originally posted by Gønzö:

I understand Karlach is “good” natured but tieflings are an unholy union between a devil and human. I don’t think a Holy Paladin would ever party with such an abomination with goat horns, red skin, cloven hooves and smelling constantly of fire and brimstone.

wrong again.

In fact most Tiefling's parents aren't even aware there is any devil blood at all in their family tree.

it's basically a recessive trait that pops up (as both parents can be completely human/elf/halfelf/etc.) and the child is born a tiefling. So only a "lawful stupid" paladin would really hate them just for existing. It would be a "sins of the father, blame the child" type of situation.

Which is why most tieflings get treated like ♥♥♥♥, and end up falling into an "evil" alignment because they are treated like crap for something their great great great grandmother did.

You don’t get to say wrong. They have devil blood, they look like devils. I’m not wrong.

[Toblm]

Originally posted by Gønzö:

Originally posted by kblaze13:

wrong again.

In fact most Tiefling's parents aren't even aware there is any devil blood at all in their family tree.

it's basically a recessive trait that pops up (as both parents can be completely human/elf/halfelf/etc.) and the child is born a tiefling. So only a "lawful stupid" paladin would really hate them just for existing. It would be a "sins of the father, blame the child" type of situation.

Which is why most tieflings get treated like ♥♥♥♥, and end up falling into an "evil" alignment because they are treated like crap for something their great great great grandmother did.

You don’t get to say wrong. They have devil blood, they look like devils. I’m not wrong.

Tieflings = Evil is wrong.
They are individuals with the same capacity for evil or good as any other individual.

[Gønzö]

Originally posted by steelcoresoviet:

Originally posted by Gønzö:

I understand Karlach is “good” natured but tieflings are an unholy union between a devil and human. I don’t think a Holy Paladin would ever party with such an abomination with goat horns, red skin, cloven hooves and smelling constantly of fire and brimstone.

That's partially incorrect, tieflings are not cambions. They are a race of humans distorted by their ancient contact with the lower planes. Karlach's parents are two tieflings.

Of course she has been to Hell, but so have many champions of light.

I mean specifically to Karlach she admits to being a Devils hitman.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

Racism is holy?

Have you ever read a holy book in your life?

Originally posted by Noctoculus:

I think you just highlighted why the new WotC abolished the alignment system. They could not abide any kind of systemic -ism. Not all mind flayers are evil. Not all Githyanki are evil. Not all red dragons are evil. Not all demonspawn are evil. Not all evil or evil.

Correction: Not all GITH are evil.

Githyanki and Githzerai are not separate races, but rather separate cultures.

Githyanki are the ones who follow Vlaakith, and are raised from birth to be blindly, fanatically loyal to her. Those who reject Vlaakith would be outcast from Githyanki society, assuming they weren't hunted down and killed; which is honestly the far more likely outcome because as I said before, they are blind fanatics.

[女王 [Queen]]

Originally posted by Gønzö:

Originally posted by Weekend:

a real paladin would take the trouble souls and spend the game trying to save them from themselves

Yeah I heard that before. Thats not how paladins work. You take an oath and keep it. Lawful Good and Lawful Evil don’t mix. Thats sort of the point. Gandalf didn’t try to ”save” Sauron.

you're also wrong, which is hilarious
paladins aren't so black and white anymore, and their oaths very much differ
its also worth of note if you actually idk- progress, you'd learn Shadowheart is more good aligned than you think
Karlach is the same way
So maybe stop letting your personal biases and surface level look at everything determine things. You know, there is a moment in act 3 that talks about what it means to be a hero/paladin, you'd probably fail that part horrendously and get ripped apart

[女王 [Queen]]

Originally posted by .chr:

Originally posted by Gønzö:

Yeah I heard that before. Thats not how paladins work. You take an oath and keep it. Lawful Good and Lawful Evil don’t mix. Thats sort of the point. Gandalf didn’t try to ”save” Sauron.

you're also wrong, which is hilarious
paladins aren't so black and white anymore, and their oaths very much differ
its also worth of note if you actually idk- progress, you'd learn Shadowheart is more good aligned than you think
Karlach is the same way
So maybe stop letting your personal biases and surface level look at everything determine things. You know, there is a moment in act 3 that talks about what it means to be a hero/paladin, you'd probably fail that part horrendously and get ripped apart

to add onto this, you're no holy paladin for sure, you're just a black and white judge with not an ounce of holiness to your name
the exact kind of dnd character my group would kick to the curb immediately for being a boring no fun mess

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

This 'holy paladin' this and that...

Paladins of Torm will smite anything they think is evil, no questions asked, no mercy or quarter given...they are holy.

Paladins of Illmater will try to offer redemption to EVERYTHING. They are holy.

Paladins of Lathander offer a second chance to anything except undead (who are annihilated without hesitation). They are holy.

Paladins of Sune revel in beauty, love, and the pleasures of the flesh. They are holy.

Paladins of Tempus care nothing for any of that, and live for the good fight. They are holy.

Paladins of Bane enforce the law unwaveringly, and tolerate no opposition to their church's dogma. They will strip all freedom from the area they protect, but they actually will deliver safety...so long as you obey the law. They are the servants of the god of Tyranny, Hatred, and Fear. And they sound more like the 'holy paladin' you keep going on about, judgemental, harsh, merciless, and unwilling to even consider another viewpoint for a moment.

Because of this, I feel the need to once again comment on the new system that Pathfinder is going in with their ORC license.

Instead of the alignment spectrum, they're introducing a Holy vs Unholy dichotomy. However, just because something is considered 'Holy' that does not necessarily mean it is morally good, and conversely, just because something is 'Unholy' does not necessarily mean it is morally evil.

With this new approach, they're able to put a more nuanced spin on the concepts of good and evil.

[H.Honor]

Druids are gigachad tanks if you know how to build em

[Noctoculus]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Correction: Not all GITH are evil.

Githyanki and Githzerai are not separate races, but rather separate cultures.

Githyanki are the ones who follow Vlaakith, and are raised from birth to be blindly, fanatically loyal to her. Those who reject Vlaakith would be outcast from Githyanki society, assuming they weren't hunted down and killed; which is honestly the far more likely outcome because as I said before, they are blind fanatics.

That's not a correction, that's the original lore. Just like there are metallic dragons to counter the chromatic.

Now, not all Githyanki are evil.