Can a Warlock in pact with The Fiend be good?

[Arani]

I don't have experience in playing warlocks. But I wanted to make one for BG3, and a 100% good one besides. But the pact with the Fiend is by far the most appealing option of the three available. Except for the fact that The Fiend is as evil as can get. If it were PnP I could think of any number of reasons and random little stories for how it's possible for a Warlock of all things to be good, even when in pact with The Fiend. But sometimes, lore comes first.

So how is it in practice in PnP? More importantly, how will it be for BG3? Is there some kind of a lore reason for why no matter what you do, The Fiend will always corrupt you, your actions, your friends?

Otherwise I could simply say my character had a different past, a traumatic event, was coerced or forced into the pact to protect someone close to her, with no intentions of actually supporting anything evil. In RP terms this would also work since I plan to take The Dark Urge and only 2 levels of Warlock, rest going on Sorc. So the Warlock skills would sort of become like a previous career choice, while the sorceries would represent a new path forward.

[Arani]

Originally posted by DeadBeat61:

Originally posted by Foolswalkin:

That’s weird, because Fextralife says you always have a choice w DU.

Honestly all we have at this point is what people who have played it tell us, so nothing is guaranteed until we have it in our hands. But I got the above info from this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y8DxRuzzEs

Thanks for this, this was some really crucial bit of info. Honestly I'll have to think about this. While from a roleplaying perspective it certainly is interesting that you will be forced to blow up at some points, I hate losing control over my own character's decisions. This sort of makes the Dark Urge better and worse at the same time. Better because it's a real thing, not just something you can choose to ignore. Worse because it just further drives home the focus Larian chose to make with the game.

If you want to be a truly good custom character, you have but one option: no origin. That certainly feels like my kind of players got the short end of the stick and are definitely missing out. :c The Dark Urge might be better at for a second character at a later date, once the mechanics are fully understood and we can prepare for them. Or perhaps we get mods that can adjust it to be less intrusive.

[Foolswalkin]

Yeah, that’s essentially the opposite conclusion from this video.

When you can’t trust YouTubers scrambling for views, who can you trust?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bO04ujpz-AU&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com%2F&feature=emb_title

[ihatevnecks]

The patron may have helped you unlock your initial power, but they have zero control over you and they can't corrupt you unless you willingly let them. A warlock's powers are internal, it's why they're a CHA-based caster.

The moment the bargain is made, the warlock can decide to spend the rest of their life using their power to counter everything the patron wanted. The patron can certainly work against the warlock, and will undoubtedly have FAR more resources and power, but nothing is stopping the warlock from making that choice. Their power can't be taken away. This is straight from Jeremy Crawford, the Lead Rules Designer for 5E:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1221978854119460866?s=20

[Varg]

Never heard the phrase "The path to hell is paved with good intentions"?

There is no reason why you can't play as a "good" pact of the fiend warlock... Who knows, it might lead to some interesting conversations with your patron.

Best advice, try it and find out.

[Tomatokek]

yes if you chose them to be depending on your actions in game.

[[Heretic]Rivga]

A good warlock is actually a great character idea - Wyll is essentially that Idea. But other backgrounds could be that you managed to get one over on the Fiend to get powers without having to sell your soul or do evil.

[ExcaliburV]

Originally posted by ihatevnecks:

The patron may have helped you unlock your initial power, but they have zero control over you and they can't corrupt you unless you willingly let them. A warlock's powers are internal, it's why they're a CHA-based caster.

The moment the bargain is made, the warlock can decide to spend the rest of their life using their power to counter everything the patron wanted. The patron can certainly work against the warlock, and will undoubtedly have FAR more resources and power, but nothing is stopping the warlock from making that choice. Their power can't be taken away. This is straight from Jeremy Crawford, the Lead Rules Designer for 5E:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1221978854119460866?s=20

Wow, that's... really dumb, and not interesting conceptually.

Oh well. Put it in the watered down 5e concepts bucket.

[Foolswalkin]

I mean… depends on the bargain.

[MeatGolem]

Originally posted by ExcaliburV:

Originally posted by ihatevnecks:

The patron may have helped you unlock your initial power, but they have zero control over you and they can't corrupt you unless you willingly let them. A warlock's powers are internal, it's why they're a CHA-based caster.

The moment the bargain is made, the warlock can decide to spend the rest of their life using their power to counter everything the patron wanted. The patron can certainly work against the warlock, and will undoubtedly have FAR more resources and power, but nothing is stopping the warlock from making that choice. Their power can't be taken away. This is straight from Jeremy Crawford, the Lead Rules Designer for 5E:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1221978854119460866?s=20

Wow, that's... really dumb, and not interesting conceptually.

Oh well. Put it in the watered down 5e concepts bucket.

I dunno. Seems to open up a lot of interesting conflict potential. Plus from what little we've seen, we have a great example of what can happen if you go against the deal you made with your patron in the game so it's not like they get away unscathed. Depends on what their deal was.

[ExcaliburV]

Originally posted by mindflayerslayer:

I dunno. Seems to open up a lot of interesting conflict potential. Plus from what little we've seen, we have a great example of what can happen if you go against the deal you made with your patron in the game so it's not like they get away unscathed. Depends on what their deal was.

Seems to me like it greatly shuts down interesting conflict potential. I also don't understand why any patron anywhere ever would give anyone power if they're not beholden to the pact in any way. That's like a cop giving a gun to a random because they -might- use it to catch criminals.

Agree to disagree I guess.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Arani:

So how is it in practice in PnP? More importantly, how will it be for BG3? Is there some kind of a lore reason for why no matter what you do, The Fiend will always corrupt you, your actions, your friends?

In practice, it depends entirely upon how the DM is willing to play out the dynamic between warlock and patron.

As the saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Your character may ultimately be driven by a desire to perform good deeds, but their fiendish patron is not going to make it easy for them. They will always be seeking ways to capitalize on the situation, and resisting the temptation to give in to corruption and violate your morale code becomes increasingly more difficult as the demands of your patron grow ever more difficult to fulfill.

Fiends do not simply aspire to be evil, they are the physical embodiment of evil itself. It is against their fundamental nature to not behave in a suitably evil fashion. So no, they're not just gonna let you run around making life better for everybody, when they can instead exploit the situation for personal gain and pleasure.

[Arani]

Originally posted by ExcaliburV:

Originally posted by ihatevnecks:

The patron may have helped you unlock your initial power, but they have zero control over you and they can't corrupt you unless you willingly let them. A warlock's powers are internal, it's why they're a CHA-based caster.

The moment the bargain is made, the warlock can decide to spend the rest of their life using their power to counter everything the patron wanted. The patron can certainly work against the warlock, and will undoubtedly have FAR more resources and power, but nothing is stopping the warlock from making that choice. Their power can't be taken away. This is straight from Jeremy Crawford, the Lead Rules Designer for 5E:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1221978854119460866?s=20

Wow, that's... really dumb, and not interesting conceptually.

Oh well. Put it in the watered down 5e concepts bucket.

Googled around for a bit and the gist of it does seem to be that the pact is simply a transaction. Once made, the patron cannot strip the warlock of their powers any more than the warlock can somehow get the price of the pact renegotiated or removed. In some cases like with The Old One, the patron may not even be aware of the transaction being made. Patrons are also not deities. And even deities in Forgotten Realms do not have infinite power, can die (not through common sources ofc), and are held accountable by other deities and Ao.

So basically being a Warlock leaves just about everything up to good ole roleplaying. For forming the pact itself, maybe they were present when a random summoning spell went awry, and made contact with a representative of the patron? Maybe in a moment of crisis a patron happened to be watching them and and offered to save them by granting them power in exchange for a price. Maybe they found an artifact, book, portal or any other anomalous event and unknowingly made a contact and deal with the devil. As for the price, it can also be anything. Your soul, someone else's, money, a vague favor some time in the future, anything at all. And if that transaction involved some future deed, your Warlock could just as well refuse when the time came, and then the patron would do whatever the DM deemed they would. Seek them out and kill them? Arrange accidents and misfortuen to the people around them? Curse them? Wait until they died and condemn their soul to eternal torment? Or simply seem to ignore them, while in reality playing the long game to take opportunity of the character's actions to achieve whatever otherworldy malign intents they had in mind. Even just the Warlock not being worth the effort and being ignored entirely, or whatever plans the patron had never coming to fruition in this case, is an option. Literally anything can happen.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Arani:

Originally posted by ExcaliburV:

Wow, that's... really dumb, and not interesting conceptually.

Oh well. Put it in the watered down 5e concepts bucket.

Googled around for a bit and the gist of it does seem to be that the pact is simply a transaction. Once made, the patron cannot strip the warlock of their powers any more than the warlock can somehow get the price of the pact renegotiated or removed.

It depends upon the nature of the pact.

By concept, a pact is a bargain, contract or agreement that you enter into. If one or more parties does something to violate the terms of that pact, then the pact can be rendered null and void.

In the case of Fey and Great Old Ones, the chances of this happening can vary between individual cases. But when it comes to Fiends, specifically in the case of devils, such a violation of terms almost never happens in regards to the patron fulfilling their end of the deal. Any breaches of the contract are almost universally committed by the warlock, rather than the patron.

Also, your patron does not simply awaken the dormant power sleeping within you. They are the direct source of where your power comes from. Without your patron's support, you have no power; so it is best to remain on their good side.

It's like in BG2, when Dorn kills his demonic master after realizing he's trying to trick him into getting killed on the job. If you don't convince Dorn to pledge fealty to a new master after doing this, then he loses his Blackguard powers and becomes a regular Fighter.

[Arani]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Arani:

Googled around for a bit and the gist of it does seem to be that the pact is simply a transaction. Once made, the patron cannot strip the warlock of their powers any more than the warlock can somehow get the price of the pact renegotiated or removed.

It depends upon the nature of the pact.

By concept, a pact is a bargain, contract or agreement that you enter into. If one or more parties does something to violate the terms of that pact, then the pact can be rendered null and void.

In the case of Fey and Great Old Ones, the chances of this happening can vary between individual cases. But when it comes to Fiends, specifically in the case of devils, such a violation of terms almost never happens in regards to the patron fulfilling their end of the deal. Any breaches of the contract are almost universally committed by the warlock, rather than the patron.

Also, your patron does not simply awaken the dormant power sleeping within you. They are the direct source of where your power comes from. Without your patron's support, you have no power; so it is best to remain on their good side.

It's like in BG2, when Dorn kills his demonic master after realizing he's trying to trick him into getting killed on the job. If you don't convince Dorn to pledge fealty to a new master after doing this, then he loses his Blackguard powers and becomes a regular Fighter.

This is what I would have thought too. But it really does turn out that officially this isn't the case at all. The pact grants you access to power, and that access once given cannot be revoked. So mechanically speaking it's precisely the same as permanently infusing you with magic or knowledge, and now that you have it, it's a part of you. Unless someone literally comes in and through magical means robs you of it (the closest per-rule equivalent I can think of is something like level drain), there is no way to take that power away. All they can do is deal with the consequences, as I said.

Now this is roleplaying we're talking about, so official rules be damned every single time the players & the DM make a good case for it. House rules is where it's at. But officially it says what it says.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Arani:

This is what I would have thought too. But it really does turn out that officially this isn't the case at all. The pact grants you access to power, and that access once given cannot be revoked. So mechanically speaking it's precisely the same as permanently infusing you with magic or knowledge, and now that you have it, it's a part of you. Unless someone literally comes in and through magical means robs you of it (the closest per-rule equivalent I can think of is something like level drain), there is no way to take that power away. All they can do is deal with the consequences, as I said.

Now this is roleplaying we're talking about, so official rules be damned every single time the players and/or the DM make a good case for it. House rules is where it's at. But officially it says what it says.

Well, the Pact of the Tome says that if your grimoire is stolen or destroyed, you can commune with your patron to have them give you a replacement.

Obviously, that's going to be quite difficult to do, if your patron is dead, or has decided to revoke the contract. And respecing into a different pact boon isn't going to make any sense, as you would need a patron to grant you the boon in the first place.