ALL RACES HAVE THE SAME ATTRIBUTES

[friendly player 1]

WTF? WHY DID THEY CHANGE THIS.

Edit:
Some in the discussion are obvious trolls lol, but it's BASED ON DND TO MAKE BUILDS THAT DIFFERENT RACES HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGHTS. NOOB ♥♥♥♥ DEVS
But I will leave positive review

Edit2: I also wanna ask you all, you think its nice that a gnome have the same strength as a half-orc?

Edit3: People disagreeing for no reason radicalise me, stop doing it.

Edit4: finally a normal person came along with a couple of others who have DnD experience and answered calmly and gave a nuanced picture. Thank you

Edit5: in the selected answer I give larian studios the benefit of the doubt, but a lot of criticism in this thread also talks about why it is ok to be suspicious to this change as it is not rational to all players.

[GamingWithSilvertail]

Originally posted by Draken:

Originally posted by GamingWithSilvertail:

Racials promote meta's. For coop, I dont think this should ever be a thing.

Even without stat differences, there is still going to be a meta as long as racial traits exist.

And even if you would remove those, you would still have players that prefer the most powerful classes as meta.

To remove meta, you would have to remove all choice from a game.

I dont think I mentioned anything about complete removal of meta but thanks for your input on something I didnt say o.O

I only mentioned racials because of people then picking one race. Its not good for a game if everyone picks the same race.

[Vindred]

Originally posted by atm:

I'm kind of perplexed by the people claiming the 'woke' crowd see orcs as 'black people and are therefore racist'. Here's how I see it.

What us 'woke' folks do know is that actual racists (which are sadly all too common these days) see race as defining or limiting your potential and capabilities. (And before I get flamed for this: TOO MANY Americans think that the reason black people don't get hired is because they are just worse than white people at a given job, and scream 'diversity hire!' whenever they see a black person get a job or role. Implicit in this is that black people are just naturally worse at stuff than white people, and that them not getting hired is in fact natural. And you can't say they recognise that there are socio-cultural issues at play either, because if they did they would be trying to help mitigate them, which they are not. So yeah, we're talking pure 'your race is just worse, accept it' racism here.)

You probably define "racism" differently, too, though. For us, "racism" is when you equate parentage to matters of personal character. Racism for us is hating someone you don't know because of their parentage. That also means we're willing to talk to racists, though, because it means that a racist is just someone who's thinking about things incorrectly, and that means that you can convert even the worst ones.[www.theguardian.com] But we do have to talk to the actual racist about their actual racism in order to do that. We can't change them by taking orcs away from them, or changing the stories in movies and shows and comic books because none of that exists in the same universe as the problem.

Orcs are fantasy monsters designed to represent danger, and only the most brutish aspects of humanity. They were conceived of as a bad guy that is more of a threat than a wild beast. They're something for the player characters to kill. They are not analogs for black people. They are a fantasy race, not models for how we should treat our fellow human beings in real life, or models for humans at all.

If every single fantasy setting has to relate to a particular aspect of our real social order, there is no escape, because there is no escapism. If everything has to exist in service to "make sure nobody thinks anyone is better than anyone else along any imaginable dimension", there is no roleplaying as someone overcoming a racial adversity, because there is no adversity, because you aren't allowed to roleplay racial adversity because people in real life can't stand the thought that a fake people could be presented as having a deficit relative to their fake peers.

[᲼᲼᲼᲼᲼᲼᲼᲼᲼]

Also the skin colour for some reason doesn't affect wisdom and intelligence.

[Draken]

Originally posted by GamingWithSilvertail:

Originally posted by Draken:

Even without stat differences, there is still going to be a meta as long as racial traits exist.

And even if you would remove those, you would still have players that prefer the most powerful classes as meta.

To remove meta, you would have to remove all choice from a game.

I dont think I mentioned anything about complete removal of meta but thanks for your input on something I didnt say o.O

I only mentioned racials because of people then picking one race. Its not good for a game if everyone picks the same race.

You mentione racials promoting meta and that meta shouldn't be a thing for coop.

Hence my comment that racial traits also promote meta as do all other character choices.

As for eveyone picking the same race, you usually only have that if one race is completely overpowered and the best for everything.
This is not the case for dnd. Different races have different strength and weaknesses, so unless you have a coop party where everyone is the same subclass with a meta build you should see different races.
Also not everyone wants a meta build. Thematic and roleplay builds are also a thing.

[⇧⇨⇩⇩⇩]

Originally posted by atm:

I'm kind of perplexed by the people claiming the 'woke' crowd see orcs as 'black people and are therefore racist'. Here's how I see it.

What us 'woke' folks do know is that actual racists (which are sadly all too common these days) see race as defining or limiting your potential and capabilities. (And before I get flamed for this: TOO MANY Americans think that the reason black people don't get hired is because they are just worse than white people at a given job, and scream 'diversity hire!' whenever they see a black person get a job or role. Implicit in this is that black people are just naturally worse at stuff than white people, and that them not getting hired is in fact natural. And you can't say they recognise that there are socio-cultural issues at play either, because if they did they would be trying to help mitigate them, which they are not. So yeah, we're talking pure 'your race is just worse, accept it' racism here.)

A game system in which that world view is laid out in exquisite mathematical detail is therefore kind of problematic - not because we don't think people can't tell the difference between fantasy races and human races (although there are plenty of games that do have human subraces with different stats), but because the idea that human-like characters are limited by their inborn racial characteristics plays into what real-world racists believe about humans. I do not fault a game system from deciding to distance itself from that.

But even from a roleplaying point of view, there is no reason why any race shoudln't be able to have almost any stats. You could play an extreme outlier. You could play someone of one race who was raised in a society of another. It's not like being the one intelligent orc or ripped halfling is really going to break the world.

Here is why that reasoning is moronic. Humans are all the same species, there may be slight genetic differences based on ethnicity but we all have basically the same biology. Also in regards to how humans treat other humans we have come up with concepts like human rights because we find that makes for better societies.

Orcs elves and humans however are very much different species with different biology. A human who doesnt sleep for a year will just die, and elf gets away with some meditation.
Having these differences be represented by different stat bonuses has absolutely nothing to do with humans having racist ideas about other humans. Only a very stupid human would think so.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by morrganstain:

Orcs elves and humans however are very much different species with different biology. If a human doesnt sleep for a year will just die, and elf gets away with some meditation.
Having these differences be represented by different stat bonuses has absolutely nothing to do with humans having racist ideas about other humans. Only a very stupid human would think so.

Humans need 8 hours of down time to gain the benefits of a Long Rest.

Elves only need to meditate for 4 hours.

Not only do they not have a biological need to sleep, but they can remain healthy and active with only half the amount of time that would be required for a human.

Also, in the Pathfinder setting, elves seem to be mysteriously immune to the effects of Ghoul Fever and paralysis. A trait which they most certainly do not share in common with humans.

[⇧⇨⇩⇩⇩]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by morrganstain:

Orcs elves and humans however are very much different species with different biology. If a human doesnt sleep for a year will just die, and elf gets away with some meditation.
Having these differences be represented by different stat bonuses has absolutely nothing to do with humans having racist ideas about other humans. Only a very stupid human would think so.

Humans need 8 hours of down time to gain the benefits of a Long Rest.

Elves only need to meditate for 4 hours.

Not only do they not have a biological need to sleep, but they can remain healthy and active with only half the amount of time that would be required for a human.

Also, in the Pathfinder setting, elves seem to be mysteriously immune to the effects of Ghoul Fever and paralysis. A trait which they most certainly do not share in common with humans.

Exactly. Having a fantasy race with abilities/traits that are different from humans has nothing to do with racism. It takes a really ideologically posessed person to even want to insert concepts like racism in a place it so obviously doesnt belong.

[lazarusblack]

Originally posted by morrganstain:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Humans need 8 hours of down time to gain the benefits of a Long Rest.

Elves only need to meditate for 4 hours.

Not only do they not have a biological need to sleep, but they can remain healthy and active with only half the amount of time that would be required for a human.

Also, in the Pathfinder setting, elves seem to be mysteriously immune to the effects of Ghoul Fever and paralysis. A trait which they most certainly do not share in common with humans.

Exactly. Having a fantasy race with abilities/traits that are different from humans has nothing to do with racism. It takes a really ideologically posessed person to even want to insert concepts like racism in a place it so obviously doesnt belong.

Unfortunately, this is a case of real world politics influencing in game mechanics decisions.

The abject fear and terror experienced by many in the real world, that there might be slight differences between different races, genders, and even individuals due to genetic variances and morphology has resulted in a deep reluctance to portray the same logic or reasoning in game worlds. When that pairs with the reality that less complex gameplay systems have wider appeal, you get a strong incentive to smooth out differences to have a broader range of appeal and to appease and capture interest from the same people who are intellectually opposed to the reality of genetic difference resulting in advantage and disadvantage.

[⇧⇨⇩⇩⇩]

Originally posted by lazarusblack:

Originally posted by morrganstain:

Exactly. Having a fantasy race with abilities/traits that are different from humans has nothing to do with racism. It takes a really ideologically posessed person to even want to insert concepts like racism in a place it so obviously doesnt belong.

Unfortunately, this is a case of real world politics influencing in game mechanics decisions.

The abject fear and terror experienced by many in the real world, that there might be slight differences between different races, genders, and even individuals due to genetic variances and morphology has resulted in a deep reluctance to portray the same logic or reasoning in game worlds. When that pairs with the reality that less complex gameplay systems have wider appeal, you get a strong incentive to smooth out differences to have a broader range of appeal and to appease and capture interest from the same people who are intellectually opposed to the reality of genetic difference resulting in advantage and disadvantage.

I know a way to test if someone genuinely believe biology doesnt matter or if they are just pretending so for virtue signal points.

Hire out a horse race track and rent two animals for a race. A Shetland Pony and an standard racing horse. Then give the test person one million dollars to bet on one of the horses. If they win they get to keep the money but if they are wrong they get to keep nothing.

Betting on the obvious horse isnt a matter of being racist or not, its a matter of not being a moron. XD

[A Fat, Angry Serval]

This is actually an option in 5e itself, introduced by Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. As an optional rule (or mandatory in the case of some races), on character creation you can pick your racial attribute bonuses, rather than having them assigned by your race of choice. It seems this game has decided to use that as its default.

If you don't want this, you can look up the racial traits in the 5e PHB or SRD and just pick those as your attribute bonuses.

[air_mentor]

You can create a less strength gnome than a half-orc if you want

[ARFett]

Originally posted by wut up:

otherwise its racist

I am really getting sick of this idiotic argument.

Yes there are different SPECIES/RACES in fantasy.

Because unlike in our "normal" world the species were invented by different Pantheons of Gods.

Hell, we even got a DRAGON species.

Are they different?

Of course they are!

But that is NOT racist.

You pack a concept and problem of the "real" world into a fantasy world setting.

Plenty of the "history" and fights of the different species in DnD were due to what you called racist reasons.

Battle between Dwarves and Elves which destroyed their Empires.

The grudges of the shattered Elves and Dwarf Empires against the fast growing and birthing humans.

In some places like Baldurs Gate or Neverwinter or Waterdeep this is overcome mostly. In some regions where Dwarves and Elves still hold sway they are still simmering.

Sometimes due to old hate or isolation.

So yes - racism and how the different species either learned or not to is part of the LORE.

If you cry out racist you can just discard the whole forgotten realms setting!

The whole "racist" cry is totally overblown.

And for hell's sake:

The twitter which made "Half-Orcs" into "The Orcs are black people" was totally idiotic.

And just spilled the race discussions into the character creation.

To hell:

You can make ANY species BLACK people if you want in character creation.

Is that racist?

I don't think so.

And again:

In forgotten realms setting even human nations sometimes ARE racist due to lore.

Like magocracies or kingdoms where a certain bloodline holds sway.

Is that also racist?

Because the way you handle RP in these realms often breeds the adventures in rpg as you sometimes topple or deal with areas where you have problems like racism and elitism (nobles holding all out power etc.)