How OP is level 20 without using spellcasters

[solaris32]

Whenever people on here talk about how being level 20 basically makes you a god, they always use a wizard as an example and the spells they can do. Give me examples of a level 20 fighter, barbarian, ranger, rogue, etc.

[Kyutaru]

Hi, I'm a fighter. I can attack four times in one action and get two action surges per short rest. I can reroll failed saves twice per day so I'm perfect for throwing at basically anything you want dead. I might not melt bosses like a Paladin but I let my dice do the talking. And I roll a lot of them.

[Aoroi]

Any character can be god-like at any level with 5e rules. I mean, a level 1 Ranger can defeat a Tarrasque in 5e. I took down a Tarrasque as a level 2 Artificer and a level 3 Ranger helped.

[solaris32]

I mean, level 20 wizards, according to what I read on here, can make a clone of themselves, alter reality, use meteor and kill anything in a mile radius. What can other classes do? Or are high level wizards just so ungodly powerful that nothing can touch them except another wizard?

[.Master Jiren, The Strongest]

martial classes arent OP. The biggest problem with dnd 5e is that the gap between spellcasters and martial classes becomes obnoxious at certain levels. Sure, as far as damage goes, single target, you might hold your own. You'll have more attacks, more armor, more hp, probably have more feats too.

But you can answer this question yourself. Which do you think is more op? Swinging your sword two more times? Or summoning a castle ontop of your enemies. What about the ability to create an alternate dimension? What about the ability to create two bags of holding and throw them into eachother to destroy any enemy. Or the ability to plane shift a creature out of your campaign to never have to bother dealing with them again.

Wizard is the go to example because they get fireball at level 3 and wish at level 17, which are, by unanimous decision, the most powerful spells in the game.

Rogues, fighters, hunters, paladins, barbarians, they arent going to have that kind of power.

But, a level 20 cleric can summon his God to actually smite you. Literally. No roll. no check. He can just do it. He summons a God.

Druids can pretty much wild shape at will, gaining hundreds and hundreds of hit points, making them basically unkillable

wizards, bards, sorcerers, and warlocks are all full casters, same as the cleric and the druid, and as a result get access to magic that is so overwhelmingly powerful that a fighter or barbarian swinging two extra times and having extra hit points just isnt enough to compete.

Sure, in a one on one fight, maybe a fighter kills a wizard. Maybe a barbarian kills a bard. But that bard could just mass suggestion an army into killing the barbarian, he wouldnt even have to fight you. Better yet, he could just suggest YOU. The wizard will just unmake reality or something. Clerics and Wizards could both animate an undead army. Druids can summon an army of forest creatures. Sorcerers can wipe out an entire city, no saving throw, no skill check, they just do it.

Magic is magic man. A martial class might be great with a sword, maybe they are tough, maybe they kill your caster in a one on one fight, thing about casters is though, they never have to engage in a one on one straight fight. I mean the sorcerer can just wipe you out of existence from one town over before you even know you're in a fight. Theres nothing that any martial class gets that comes anywhere close to the power of some of the early level spells like fireball, let alone 9th level spells that make you an actual God.

and, be careful about calling yourself a God. Because my cleric might just summon you to fight for him.

[solaris32]

^ Yea that's what I figured. Just once I want a game where martial classes are OP and spellcasters suck. Some Dragonball Z ♥♥♥♥ or something. Oh, you can summon a castle on my head? That's ok, I can punch the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ planet.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by solaris32:

I mean, level 20 wizards, according to what I read on here, can make a clone of themselves, alter reality, use meteor and kill anything in a mile radius. What can other classes do? Or are high level wizards just so ungodly powerful that nothing can touch them except another wizard?

Put it this way, the wizard gets one opportunity to blow his load. If you survive his load, say by being Resistant to all elemental damage, then the wizard is royally screwed. Wizards have lots of tricks but they can all be used in a single battle and then not again until you rest. They have some minor spell recovery tricks but it's not going to replenish everything you just listed as a combo. Other classes, especially Warlock, are very short rest friendly and can keep going all day long. That's why the balance of 5e at the table comes down to one question: how often can you long rest? And that varies by DM.

[DDkiki]

Yeah in 5e...martial classes on later level kinda suck. A lot. Compare to anything with casting ability. Its really not fun how terrible the disparity between them. Thats why lower level campaigns have at least semblance of balance.

[solaris32]

Originally posted by DDkiki:

Yeah in 5e...martial classes on later level kinda suck. A lot. Compare to anything with casting ability. Its really not fun how terrible the disparity between them. Thats why lower level campaigns have at least semblance of balance.

I really hope that's not going to translate to this game, because I always start with sword and shield guy and I want to have fun, not be useless in the late game :(.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by solaris32:

^ Yea that's what I figured. Just once I want a game where martial classes are OP and spellcasters suck.

The thing about martial classes is that people often look at them in a vacuum independent of the world. But martial classes live in a world of magic. The wizard isn't the only one who has access to it. One of the things Diablo 4 does with the Barbarian is let you have three different weapons equipped. In another game, the special ability of warriors is to have four weapons equipped.

The thing that Fighters can do ever since the original editions is use any weapon they want. This compounds in terms of power when you have specialized weapon that are critical to certain scenarios. This was ESPECIALLY noticeable in 3.5 edition, where even in the Dungeons and Dragons Online MMORPG you will have fighters/paladin/etc sporting multiple weapons in their inventory and hotswapping between them depending on the enemy. Sure, you might not have ice spells, but you can have a greatsword with an icy burst enchantment that does massive cold damage to use on red dragons that are weak to cold.

This isn't exactly illustrated well in 5e given the muted effects of item power but it still remains true that fighters are flexible in their weapon types and can easily rock polearms, sword and shield, or longbows according to the situation. If all of those weapons have unique enchantments then you can also tailor the ones you want to the encounter. Unlike wizards, you also don't waste damage overkilling enemies because you can move between them to exercise your extra attacks, dividing dice judiciously between foes.

In short, you have to see fighters as weapon masters. The more weapons you've mastered and carry, the more useful they are.

[DDkiki]

Originally posted by solaris32:

Originally posted by DDkiki:

Yeah in 5e...martial classes on later level kinda suck. A lot. Compare to anything with casting ability. Its really not fun how terrible the disparity between them. Thats why lower level campaigns have at least semblance of balance.

I really hope that's not going to translate to this game, because I always start with sword and shield guy and I want to have fun, not be useless in the late game :(.

12lvl is a really nice cap, martial classes are still very viable and casters only getting started to go full power, and insane multiclasses are hard to make. So even tho there 100% would be some kinda of meta, 12lvl's progression curve allows some kind of balance between them.
Also it all really depends on itemization. Martial classes are much more dependent on good weapon and armour choices. Otherwise STR character would suffer to DEX due it being in general more potent stat.
There are many things that can change weight of balance between classes and builds.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by solaris32:

^ Yea that's what I figured. Just once I want a game where martial classes are OP and spellcasters suck. Some Dragonball Z ♥♥♥♥ or something. Oh, you can summon a castle on my head? That's ok, I can punch the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ planet.

Yeah, you're looking for BESM. Big Eyes Small Mouth is an RPG system based around anime. It gives you martial power by turning martials into just another caster of sorts. 4th edition D&D did the same thing, bringing balance to the table by turning every class into a caster.

[GrimAtrament]

level 20 doesn't really make you a god if you've seen Zariels stat block or some of the fizzbin dragons they could easily team wipe some level 20 teams. a lot of people like to make level 20 some forbidden thing because they don't know how to use high level cr monsters and the terrasque is weak in 5e, but there are so many other cr20+ enemies that will make you cry. the red dragon leader of the izit league for example.

[WeenerTuck813]

Originally posted by solaris32:

I mean, level 20 wizards, according to what I read on here, can make a clone of themselves, alter reality, use meteor and kill anything in a mile radius. What can other classes do? Or are high level wizards just so ungodly powerful that nothing can touch them except another wizard?

Barbarians capstone literally lets them break the stat rules of the game and gives them 24 Strength and 24 Con.

You guys can say magic is magic all you want, but a barb grapples a Wizard and they’re dead.

If full casters are left to their own devices at level 20 sure they can do amazing things. But martial classes are very underrated here. A Wizard is a boss but a 20 Gloomstalker will literally kill them before they even know they’re in combat.

[Dovahbear]

I haven't done the table top since 3.5 but "back in my day" a lvl 20 fighter could basically delete an entire army in 3 turns or less.

Barbarians ability to infinite rage combined with all the bonuses they have at that point meant they were basically the incredible hulk.

Rogues were just hilariously hard to kill by most conventional means. Trap a rogue in a cage and launch fireballs at them all day and watch them take no damage somehow.

Casters were of course still considered the top of the power pyramid at 20 because of things like Wish and Divine Intervention, but it's also worth considering that it's not like they're firing those off every round. Big deal spells yes but steep cost.

I never really found high level play all that fun. It really became a game of save vs. death as everyone and everything became too BA to be effectively dealt with any other way.

[Dr0W]

I'll be the one saying "Back in my time...", but right now I'm running a campaign in the old Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.

And the thing is that Wizards & Fighters are not balanced between themselves along the levels. Fighters would start really strong, and keep getting steadily strong the more levels they got. Wizards would start really, REALLY weak and would grow in power to surpass the fighters. This was obviously way more explicit in older editions, but it was still present in the third edition and it is present in the current edition.

In other words, casters > fighters in basically any edition of D&D when you're talking about very high levels like 20th.

But the thing also was that a wizard could never survive without some fighters to fight for them. You couldn't expect to have a party with only wizards and expect to survive to become powerful. Balance was always changing throughout the levels.

This too has changed along the editions, and nowadays wizards can even cast infinite spells and have better firepower in the first levels, but also are not as powerful as they once were.

In other words, many other classes will do otherworldly things, monks will understand any language known to man, fighters will do absurd physical feats, etc... But the wizard is undeterred.