Drow Lore not matching previous BG games

[Pelican-1]

I was playing BG2 to pass the time waiting for BG3 to release and I came across some dialogue with Viconia, the Drow. She states "The drow wish to rule, as do duergar, kuo-toa... even illithids, but our feet are clay. We distrust each other almost more than other races...."
Then it was proven right in front of me, when a Drow priestess murdered another Drow over a slave- she claimed he was easier to replace than a trained slave as the male drow was begging not to be killed. the priestess states that she has "other sons" and murders him outright.

Then I recall that my character in BG3 was of the Drow(female), and NOT of the lolth-kind.

While I was freeing the male Drow from the rubble in BG3 (where the duergar/forge is located) the drow was actually furious with the duergar for not being fast enough in freeing him from the rubble, and when he spoke to me I had drow options for dialogue. When chosen, he had 0 issues with me and wanted to help my situation.

This might be a small issue for most of you guys but from my understanding of BG lore, both male and female drow despise and often kill each other for little to no reason, specially the female drow having no remorse for the males, like a spider after mating, would kill the male drow with no hesitation.

According to BG1 and 2 lore, the part in BG3 when I freed the male drow from the rubble (Nere), me being a drow and a female at that, this "Nere" would have been 100% paranoid OR simply hostile towards my kind or possibly kill on sight. Instead the game has me pick his side or the side of the duergar. "After a conflictive conversation between Nere and Brithvar, you will have to choose a side between them.". There wouldn't be a side to choose according to BG2 and what happens in the underdark with Viconia in your party.

This was one of my main concerns with BG3, how much did they actually know of BG1 and 2 lore to keep the story concrete? Hopefully it can be addressed. Lore is everything.. without lore, your game/any game is aimless.

[Steffan]

booger_911 eredeti hozzászólása:

I was just playing BG2 and that happened upon entering the drow city just after Viconia stated such things would happen. So far it's true what she says about her people of the Lolth faith. which adds up when the priestess has a slave being punished by a male drow.

"Drow Priestess: Understand this, fool. You are easier to replace than a trained slave. (I guess that's the humility but....)"

"Drow: But-mistress, please! No..."

"Drow priestess: I have other sons."

"Drow: Death"

"Drow priestess: Idiot! Where shall I find a slave now?"

I don't think it was a lesson in humility rather a testament of the drow kind. and according to Ed Greenwood, that's a perfect fit to his lore of drow and their characteristics seeing how the male died and didn't learn due to being dead and not capable of lessons :P

Aside from that I agree with you.

Hmm, memory might have decieved me a bit.

I guess it depends on the slave and the timing... I wonder in what skills the slave was trained but clearly, it's not an average specimen. I think the priestess was pissed due to lack of a competent slave at that moment and just unleashed her fury on the poor son.

It seems to me that lack of services and poor timing had the son fried. Not racial superiority or class belonging. The drow version of a dissatisfied V.I.P. customer.

P.S. I don't claim that Viconia was wrong. :) I must admit that she was the party tank and my favorite party member. The black sheep in my flock. ;)

[Pelican-1]

steffan8 eredeti hozzászólása:

booger_911 eredeti hozzászólása:

I was just playing BG2 and that happened upon entering the drow city just after Viconia stated such things would happen. So far it's true what she says about her people of the Lolth faith. which adds up when the priestess has a slave being punished by a male drow.

"Drow Priestess: Understand this, fool. You are easier to replace than a trained slave. (I guess that's the humility but....)"

"Drow: But-mistress, please! No..."

"Drow priestess: I have other sons."

"Drow: Death"

"Drow priestess: Idiot! Where shall I find a slave now?"

I don't think it was a lesson in humility rather a testament of the drow kind. and according to Ed Greenwood, that's a perfect fit to his lore of drow and their characteristics seeing how the male died and didn't learn due to being dead and not capable of lessons :P

Aside from that I agree with you.

Hmm, memory might have decieved me a bit.

I guess it depends on the slave and the timing... I wonder in what skills the slave was trained but clearly, it's not an average specimen. I think the priestess was pissed due to lack of a competent slave at that moment and just unleashed her fury on the poor son.

It seems to me that lack of services and poor timing had the son fried. The drow version of a dissatisfied customer.

lolol the drow version of a dissatisfied customer seems fitting. yeah you kinda just walk into the male saying something about the slave in a bad light, then he kills the slave as punishment. then the female pounces at the very end and rips him and without even caring about it, was worried about getting another slave, then she leaves. But literally just before taking a step inside the city, Viconia was stating how the drow treated one another, their lack of trust, then that happens?! I find it no coincidence but that's not fact, just my opinion from my anecdotes.

[zero]

tc still thinking he is right even though he has been corrected dozens of times huh?

its been 20 years my dude, and your not even right to start with.

[Pelican-1]

Can't please everyone. and no I don't drink bud light

[Space Hamster Family]

Maronchan eredeti hozzászólása:

Space Hamster Family... put your "re-education" where Minsc hid Boo.

Its upsetting to hear so many reject WoTC attempt to indoctrinate people through DnD. Stop resisting and just accept their teachings. You will feel better if you do.

[Grunthex]

booger_911 eredeti hozzászólása:

Ark eredeti hozzászólása:

i mean you would know about it if you read the dnd books that exsist is the thing. but i can also understand that can be boring since its not that fun to read lol. but you could also google it uknow drow lore

We're talking about the BG universe strictly here. That's why I stated the thing about Bhaal children. I was hoping someone could put 2 and 2 together.

There IS no BG universe. There is the Forgotten Realms, which BG takes place in, and is far larger than the games.

[identity]

Why is anyone surprised that a game based 100 years after and completely disconnected from the events of BG2, and a developer that has quite clearly stated they don't care about the actual lore of the game and managed to shoehorn every mortal past character into the game with changed histories to fulfill some personal political agenda, while clearly only caring about what profit and the IP can bring them, is not at all faithful to the original series?

It's not even just Larian, either. Wizards has been retconning their stuff for years now for the same reasons.

[Ogloc36]

People have said it before in this thread, but it is weird to assume you can predict the behavior of an individual based on the characteristics of the race. It sounds like the OP is unhappy that it doesn't fit their expectations, but that happens a lot in life, and it can be jarring. Also, I think we just have to assume lore retcons exist. It is assumed that the Bhaalspawn you played in BG 1 and BG 2 was a human named Abdel Adrian, even if you were a gnome named Pie. Branching paths make lore building difficult to some degree. Bottom line, this is a troll who is looking to argue and will accept nothing less than agreement that their point of view is correct.

[GrandMajora]

id eredeti hozzászólása:

Why is anyone surprised that a game based 100 years after and completely disconnected from the events of BG2, and a developer that has quite clearly stated they don't care about the actual lore of the game and managed to shoehorn every mortal past character into the game with changed histories to fulfill some personal political agenda, while clearly only caring about what profit and the IP can bring them, is not at all faithful to the original series?

It's not even just Larian, either. Wizards has been retconning their stuff for years now for the same reasons.

Uhh, have you even played the game?

[GrandMajora]

Maronchan eredeti hozzászólása:

Assume retcons? Just look at the massive retcon that is Minsc.

Epilogue from Throne of Bhaal.

"With the saga of the Bhaalspawn closed, Minsc fulfilled a long promised oath. He returned to Rashemen, hoping to regale the Icedragon Berserker Lodge with the tales of his deeds, and earn a place within its hallowed halls. His words were not needed. Every tavern in Faerun had a bard singing of the valiant ranger, and he was welcomed as a hero."

"Eventually he formed his own adventuring company, the Justice Fist, striking fear in the hearts and faces of evil until, in his advancing age, he again set out across the realms... and disappeared. And what of Boo? Well, what is Minsc without Boo? The two would never be separated, and some say they are together still, up amongst the stars where hamsters are giants and men become legends."

[Rhawkas]

id eredeti hozzászólása:

Why is anyone surprised that a game based 100 years after and completely disconnected from the events of BG2, and a developer that has quite clearly stated they don't care about the actual lore of the game and managed to shoehorn every mortal past character into the game with changed histories to fulfill some personal political agenda, while clearly only caring about what profit and the IP can bring them, is not at all faithful to the original series?

It's not even just Larian, either. Wizards has been retconning their stuff for years now for the same reasons.

For races like the drow that live centuries, I imagine any massive changes to their very society would take some incredibly noteworthy event (which would likely be massive enough that OP would have read some book about it) or it would have taken far longer than a hundred years. After all, even though 100 years is a long time, it's only a fraction of an elf's lifespan. If there were sweeping changes that spread throughout their society, they'd probably fight them their entire lives, especially if those changes lowered their social ranking or tried to bring others up to their level. Also, any new drow that grew up with this change would still be quite young.

[RealCabbage]

I see it more like, being under that absolute, you're all equal. It's why minthara would sleep with you regardless of your race. Your both true souls of the absolute. Most other fem drow (of lolth) wouldnt

[ihatevnecks]

Rhawkas eredeti hozzászólása:

For races like the drow that live centuries, I imagine any massive changes to their very society would take some incredibly noteworthy event (which would likely be massive enough that OP would have read some book about it) or it would have taken far longer than a hundred years. After all, even though 100 years is a long time, it's only a fraction of an elf's lifespan. If there were sweeping changes that spread throughout their society, they'd probably fight them their entire lives, especially if those changes lowered their social ranking or tried to bring others up to their level. Also, any new drow that grew up with this change would still be quite young.

Massive noteworthy events like..
-the War of the Spiderqueen
-the Spellplague
-the Second Sundering
-the destruction of Ched Nasad

Those are all major events that impacted the drow specifically, or the Realms as a whole, since the events of BG2.

Beyond that, the thing people keep ignoring here is that the drow OP keeps talking about, Nere, isn't a part of any current drow society. He was at some point, but we don't know how long ago that was, or even which one.

The only information we have on him in the game is that he's now a renegade drow, he worships the Absolute, and he's a True Soul (a high ranking member of the Absolute's cult due to his tadpole). That's it; that's the whole context of the character.

And once again for those in the back: drow society is not, and has never been, monolithic. Not every city followed the model of a Lolth-worshiping matriarchy, and not every individual drow in those 'typical' Lolth-cities even truly followed her; some were secret followers of other gods like Kiaransalee or Vhaeraun. This is lore that goes back well before the BG games were ever made. Just because Viconia didn't exposition dump it it doesn't mean it didn't exist.

[Pelican-1]

RealCabbage eredeti hozzászólása:

I see it more like, being under that absolute, you're all equal. It's why minthara would sleep with you regardless of your race. Your both true souls of the absolute. Most other fem drow (of lolth) wouldnt

I'd agree too.. unfortunately if you let him do his own thing and not speak, and just say nothing for dialogue options he kills the other cultist members.. lol

[Pelican-1]

ihatevnecks eredeti hozzászólása:

Rhawkas eredeti hozzászólása:

For races like the drow that live centuries, I imagine any massive changes to their very society would take some incredibly noteworthy event (which would likely be massive enough that OP would have read some book about it) or it would have taken far longer than a hundred years. After all, even though 100 years is a long time, it's only a fraction of an elf's lifespan. If there were sweeping changes that spread throughout their society, they'd probably fight them their entire lives, especially if those changes lowered their social ranking or tried to bring others up to their level. Also, any new drow that grew up with this change would still be quite young.

Massive noteworthy events like..
-the War of the Spiderqueen
-the Spellplague
-the Second Sundering
-the destruction of Ched Nasad

Those are all major events that impacted the drow specifically, or the Realms as a whole, since the events of BG2.

Beyond that, the thing people keep ignoring here is that the drow OP keeps talking about, Nere, isn't a part of any current drow society. He was at some point, but we don't know how long ago that was, or even which one.

The only information we have on him in the game is that he's now a renegade drow, he worships the Absolute, and he's a True Soul (a high ranking member of the Absolute's cult due to his tadpole). That's it; that's the whole context of the character.

And once again for those in the back: drow society is not, and has never been, monolithic. Not every city followed the model of a Lolth-worshiping matriarchy, and not every individual drow in those 'typical' Lolth-cities even truly followed her; some were secret followers of other gods like Kiaransalee or Vhaeraun. This is lore that goes back well before the BG games were ever made. Just because Viconia didn't exposition dump it it doesn't mean it didn't exist.

so if that's all we know about him, how am I so definitively wrong about how he would act based on previous lore of drow? odd.. you're basically saying, I dunno anything about him except he's got a tadpole in his brain, but I know how he'd act psychologically... ffs and you keep spamming as if I'm stating every drow is the same :| I never even insisted on such a thing lol you're only throwing that at me cause it fits your argument.. but I never said that at all.. however, Lolth upbringing is generally the exact same for the drow involved in the spider queens tradition, they all have the same right of passage too (of Lolth)... and Nere was once of Lolth- seeing how my character is drow too and this tadpole hasn't made me forget my drow upbringing-where I even still have drow dialogue- I find it hard to believe Nere is that 1 drow who forgot about a hundred years of Drow upbringing in the past week lol tf up...

Also Viconia is just a very small example of the lore explained.. you think that's the only dialogue about drow in bg1 or 2? You tell me how wrong I am when I explain how I think Nere would act, stating you know xyz about drow lore, or lore on the true soul/cult, yet you just stated nobody knows enough about nere (including you bud) yet I'm beyond wrong in your book lol how would you even know then!?!?!?

"The only information we have on him in the game is that he's now a renegade drow, he worships the Absolute, and he's a True Soul (a high ranking member of the Absolute's cult due to his tadpole). That's it; that's the whole context of the character."
Exactly, so how am I wrong to use his Drow background to insist on his actions towards another drow? when even the Myconids refer to his drow nature when asking for his head.. Then Nere goes on to act just like a drow when killing the slaves or other cultist members of the absolute? you don't have the answers at all, so you're just assuming- just like me. Except I call BS, you are a yes man..