Level 5 - who benefits the least/most from it?

[WereElf]

I certainly haven't tried to get all of the classes to level 5 so far, but from what I've seen, this is what I can say:
- Rogue (thief) would be the class that drew the short straw. The "use reaction to halve the damage you take" pales in comparison to what the other classes got.
- Druid (circle of the moon) would be mid-tier. Thunder is truly an amazing ability - it has a decent AoE, deals decent damage and can be used multiple times in combat, when it uses just a single spell charge. However, since circle of the moon revolves around shapeshifting, there is a bit of an anti-synergy there... Although it seems perfectly viable to be playing without utilizing the core funcionality of one's sub-class.
- Spell casters (Wizard/Sorcerer/Warlock) - I can't say if bard is also on this list, but basically anyone who got access to fireball. They became really powerful and make fights against multiple enemies (such as the goblin fight - provided you postpond it until you get level 5) so much easier and faster. Two consecutive fireballs are also almost enough to clear the githyanki as well. So theoretically the sorcerer is the best one of the casters due to being able to use it 2-ce in a turn.
- Fighter did get a huge buff with the 2-nd attack. They can now attack 4 times per turn (with Action Surge), which can deal immense single-target damage. However....
- Barbarian (Frenzy berserker) got the biggest buff, in my opinion. While they are indeed similar to the fighter, they can pick the perk that increases their damage by 10, but reduces their attack rolls by 5, and still have good changes to hit thanks to Reckless Strike, which gives them an advantage. They can also attack 3 times per turn, unlike the fighters who can attack 4 times in a single turn only 1-ce per short rest. And with the helmet, which gives you an additional bonus action, if you're below 50% HP, you can also throw a weapon, giving you 4 attacks every turn, when you're below 50% HP. This can result in tremendeous amounts of single-target damage (or multiple targets, if they are close enough), and that's not even mentioning the ~50% movement increase they got.

But what do you think?

[KOHb]

Nguyên văn bởi WeenerTuck813:

Able to be split 1-4 ways
Ranged

If I'm not mistaken here is an inaccuracy (meaning conditioning potential same as for barb).
AB is OP broken because it is added above another damage modificators. So you will be able to get full of it only when target is hexed. Restricting it to 1-2 targets per round, but not more than 1 at the same time.

But in one I think we'll agree: it must be fixed same as those haste/double cast and other mechanics problems which ruin the balance.

[PocketYoda]

Nguyên văn bởi Criminal Horse:

I'll will take take in consideration EA with very innacurate spell import, OP items and broken mechanics. Most strongest underlined.
Main problems here are:
* ability to cast twice under the haste spell in a turn which is outrageous
** 'haste' (from potion or spell) giving full bonus action instead of limited. Meaning martial classes gain 2 bonus attacks instead of just 1.
*** ability of infinite rest after each combat (there are some exceptions, but they are few)
**** broken aoe channeling abilities like moonlight beam, cloud of daggers, spirits... that potentially could make a lot instances of damage instead doing it only once.

• Paladin (OP broken)
Great burst damage while you have enough spell slots. As *** you can do it infinitely after each fight.
Has 4 attacks ** with d8 - 2d8 smite bonus + bonus damge from bonus action enhance weapon spell like Thunderous Smite (+2d6) + GWM (Great Weapon Master)

• Druid (OP broken)
As mentioned earlier — double cast * call lightning ** with x2 damage if wet.
Or broken moonlight **** which is not that cool, but still OP

• Rogue (meh)
Cannot benefit much from OP mechanics.
Sneak attack delivery system sucks in this game.
Even with potential of 7 attacks can't deliver huge amount of damage like barb or pally.

• Barbarian (totally OP broken as hell, maybe one of the most)
Has advantage on each hit, which makes him one of the best user of GWM in terms of chance to hit and the higher chance to crit with adv (9.75% instead of basic 5% from d20 roll) which procs GWM bonus attack.
Also it's the only class that can make the most of bonus actions. Meaning with <50% HP and Helmet of Grit you gain +1 bonus action, meaning bonus attack.

So barbarian with advantage and GWM while raging can hit up to 7 times:
2 basic attacks + 2 ** + 2 bonus actions + most likely GWM proc from crit (or mob pepsi).
That's insane amount of potential damage per round.

• Bard (mostly meh)
Same as others but less effective.

• Fighter (meh in comparition to paladin/barb)

• Ranger (meh in comparition to paladin/barb)
Has not much bonuses from swings, so even having up to 6 attacks per round with TWF and Dual Wielder cannot overdamage pally/warlock/barb.
But still 4-6 attacks + d6 (hunter mark) can make not bad amount of damage.

• Warlock (OP broken)
Has broken Agonizing blast (AB), wich duplicates it's proc.
With ** can cast EB twice * of total 4 rays. Each ray procs AB twice while target is hexed.
That's insane amount of damage, comparable to barb, because barb is more depending on conditions, while warlock can do it every round.

• Sorcerer (OP broken support)
Not that great by himself, but can cast broken twinned haste to make 2 of your party members barb/warlock/pally/druid beasts.
Capacity to cast twice * cannot be much exploited like in case of druid because of limited spell slots.

• Wizard (meh)
Worse copy of sorcerer with less potential but more spells to learn.

• Cleric (average)
Has spirits **** and is quite good at supporting.
Capacity to cast twice * cannot be much exploited like in case of druid because of limited spell slots.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Pretty much the same as the table top.

[KOHb]

Nguyên văn bởi PocketYoda:

Pretty much the same as the table top.

Even if it is (arguable), reasons are diametral different.

[brendan_in_china]

This feels like 2014 again when everyone was discovering early mid-level 5E play.

Personally, while some classes look weak on paper I've yet to see a character in play who didn't contribute more or less equally.

At its core, 5E is an action economy game (with tactical positioning). The party simply needs to have more higher-value actions than the monsters, over spread of different kinds of encounters. If a character can contribute meaningfully and generally of high-value, they're effective.

[PocketYoda]

Nguyên văn bởi brendan_in_china:

This feels like 2014 again when everyone was discovering early mid-level 5E play.

Personally, while some classes look weak on paper I've yet to see a character in play who didn't contribute more or less equally.

At its core, 5E is an action economy game (with tactical positioning). The party simply needs to have more higher-value actions than the monsters, over spread of different kinds of encounters. If a character can contribute meaningfully and generally of high-value, they're effective.

Yea thieves while looking weak on paper are still very much needed in a team.

[KOHb]

Nguyên văn bởi brendan_in_china:

This feels like 2014 again when everyone was discovering early mid-level 5E play.

Personally, while some classes look weak on paper I've yet to see a character in play who didn't contribute more or less equally.

At its core, 5E is an action economy game (with tactical positioning). The party simply needs to have more higher-value actions than the monsters, over spread of different kinds of encounters. If a character can contribute meaningfully and generally of high-value, they're effective.

Atm the game is so easy that minmaxing is irrelevant.
But if we get to 'hell-like' difficulties at the release, then theorycrafting pit would be opened :)

[dolby]

Nguyên văn bởi brendan_in_china:

Personally, while some classes look weak on paper I've yet to see a character in play who didn't contribute more or less equally.

that's what i was talking about when i said everything is broken op...

I just don't want to GWM all the time so that is why i think haste is fine as is lol Cos i ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate that feat. And the corrent haste is the biggest ♥♥♥♥ you can give to GWM users right now hehe even with the new broken ass STR potions. As you can see i i'm not a fan of two handed weapons.;)

[KOHb]

Nguyên văn bởi dolby:

that's what i was talking about when i said everything is broken op...

I just don't want to GWM all the time so that is why i think haste is fine as is lol Cos i ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate that feat. And the corrent haste is the biggest ♥♥♥♥ you can give to GWM users right now hehe

Oh. I explained my position from my minmaxing experience of available classes, regarding current game build capabilities.
Trying to build maximum objective chart.

And you're talking about your your subjective priorities. Those cannot be compared.
You may play whatever you like: naked coocoo paladin dual wielding forks? Not a problem — do it! But it has nothing to do with it's potential power spike.

[dolby]

Nguyên văn bởi Criminal Horse:

Oh. I explained my position from my minmaxing experience of available classes, regarding current game build capabilities.
Trying to build maximum objective chart.

And you're talking about your your subjective priorities. Those cannot be compared.
You may play whatever you like: naked coocoo paladin dual wielding forks? Not a problem — do it! But it has nothing to do with it's potential power spike.

GWM is not a power spike it's a abomination that needs to be killed or at least cut in half, either would work.

[KOHb]

Nguyên văn bởi dolby:

GWM is not a power spike it's a abomination that needs to be killed or at least cut in half, either would work.

I don't see the problem in GWM itself. Picking GWM is alternative to +2 stat. So add andother -1 penalty to -5. You gain something for sacrificing another.

I see more a problem that other non-melee classes don't have a good alternative for GWM. Most of the feats in EA are crap. Nothing is suggested for rangers. We have no concentration feat which could help casters a lot. So GWM holds Monopoly in feats choice which is not right :D

Also, losing 6 attack bonus might be really huge IF the difficulty in EA would be a bit higher. The less chance to hit you have, the less GWM is profitable.

Or, as you told, reworking or balancing it could be an option too.

[WereElf]

I don't really think that GWM is in need of a nerf... Like, if you pick it on Lae'Zel, she has 15-25% chance to hit some enemies, when using it. And if it does get nerfed, then everyone will just be picking the +2 stat every single time, which would be boring.

[KOHb]

Nguyên văn bởi WereElf:

I don't really think that GWM is in need of a nerf... Like, if you pick it on Lae'Zel, she has 15-25% chance to hit some enemies, when using it. And if it does get nerfed, then everyone will just be picking the +2 stat every single time, which would be boring.

Yup, taking this mechanic means you must somehow compensate the loss. Picking it without plan most likely will make your character worse than it was before GWM :D

[dolby]

Nguyên văn bởi Criminal Horse:

Nguyên văn bởi WereElf:

I don't really think that GWM is in need of a nerf... Like, if you pick it on Lae'Zel, she has 15-25% chance to hit some enemies, when using it. And if it does get nerfed, then everyone will just be picking the +2 stat every single time, which would be boring.

Yup, taking this mechanic means you must somehow compensate the loss. Picking it without plan most likely will make your character worse than it was before GWM :D

ow yeah pressing that reckless attack button what a plan lol you need a true strategy genius for that one right there.:)) The fact that he just said GWM or +2 stat should be a clue in itself like those two things should be the only options... :)

[GrandMajora]

Nguyên văn bởi Edstyles:

I guess sorc and bard didnt get much . Bard powerspike is lv 6 so and sorc well they got such limited spellslots even if they have haste and fireball. Also bard inpirations are abit buged. Still love bard tho its possibly my fav class, they are strong anyway even without the lv 6 powerspike

They get about the same number of spell slots as Wizards do in 5th edition (as opposed to the heaping arsenal from previous editions). However, their bread and butter seems to be focused around the use of meta magic and sorcery points.

[KOHb]

Nguyên văn bởi dolby:

ow yeah pressing that reckless attack button what a plan lol you need a true strategy genius for that one right there.:)) The fact that he just said GWM or +2 stat should be a clue in itself like those two things should be the only options... :)

A primitive plan is a plan too :P

It would be weird if you take it on your Lae'zel fighter at the current state of EA and don't have any party spells/skills to make her land it properly (like bless or/and faerie fire, bard).