Paladins with no Diety?

[Knightmage Bael]

Aren't Paladins obligated to select a diety normally? Did they just decide Cause + Diety would be too specific of a customization option?

[dulany67]

I found out this morning that in OneD&D paladins are in the Priest grouping. Does this affect anybody's thinking on this topic?

[Siegdarth]

Publicado originalmente por Archmage_Bael:

Its not about being simple.

Anyone that uses magic gets that magic from a source. For Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids, they get it from nature/primal/bloodline/etc sources.

Clerics and Paladins are followers of faith and defenders of the innocent. Taking away the need for a Diety basically says that Paladins are no longer Paladins. They're no longer special, just fighters who "can", and removes any reason people would have to look up to them, because now they're no longer blessed. They're just people.

Removing the diety removes the purpose, the source, the impact, it breaks mechanics, and imho I don't care that its "official 5e rules", if I was the GM, I'd still say if you want to play one you have to follow a diety, because I literally can't wrap my head around how the paladin actually functions on any mechanical/lore level otherwise.

That's why Pathfinder's ruleset is actually better here than 5e.

You follow your diety, you have to follow what they teach and keep true to that, and in return their blessing gives you power. If you break their tenets, you're no longer faithful, you no longer have your power.

Then you have your cause, following the Diety's goal, or pursuing another that falls within your diety's guidelines. It makes sense.

tl;dr - Removing the diety is like removing wood from a fire and expecting the flame to burn.

LOL?

Barbarian powers comes from his rage.
Fighter powers (echo knight, EK, Battlemaster) comes from training.
Wizard powers comes from study.
Ranger from training, even the spells.
Monk from training.

So you tell me that a naked guy can get increased resistances, incorporate the spirit of animals, run fast as ♥♥♥♥ just because he is pissed off but a guy can't do ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ just based in his commitment and faith in his oaths?

In 20 years playing DnD i'm just annoyed how paladins became the same as a templar.

[PocketYoda]

Publicado originalmente por dulany67:

I found out this morning that in OneD&D paladins are in the Priest grouping. Does this affect anybody's thinking on this topic?

Nope i've said all along they are religious knights, they should be using deities.

[KOHb]

Publicado originalmente por Siegdarth:

LOL?

Barbarian powers comes from his rage.
Fighter powers (echo knight, EK, Battlemaster) comes from training.
Wizard powers comes from study.
Ranger from training, even the spells.
Monk from training.

So you tell me that a naked guy can get increased resistances, incorporate the spirit of animals, run fast as ♥♥♥♥ just because he is pissed off but a guy can't do ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ just based in his commitment and faith in his oaths?

In 20 years playing DnD i'm just annoyed how paladins became the same as a templar.

:D
That i would call righteous anger.
My regards.

[GrandMajora]

Publicado originalmente por Siegdarth:

LOL?

Barbarian powers comes from his rage.
Fighter powers (echo knight, EK, Battlemaster) comes from training.
Wizard powers comes from study.
Ranger from training, even the spells.
Monk from training.

So you tell me that a naked guy can get increased resistances, incorporate the spirit of animals, run fast as ♥♥♥♥ just because he is pissed off but a guy can't do ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ just based in his commitment and faith in his oaths?

In 20 years playing DnD i'm just annoyed how paladins became the same as a templar.

Because, as we have tried to explain many times now, Divine magic MUST have the backing of a deity in the Forgotten Realms setting. That is the source from which divine magic originates.

When a Cleric uses magic, they temporarily transform their body into a conduit through which their deity is able to act upon the mortal plane without violating any sort of cosmic laws in the process.

Clerics do not study higher level spells. They are granted higher level spells from their deity. That is also why they get access to their entire spell book, while other casters have to build their repertoire over time.

-------------------------

Even Druids fall into this category as well. They may not be traditional priests, but nearly all of them worship Sylvanus, or at least highly revere him. Being the god of nature, Sylvanus IS nature itself. So by communing with nature, the Druids are effectively communing with Sylvanus.

[Benenlin]

Publicado originalmente por GrandMajora:

Publicado originalmente por Siegdarth:

LOL?

Barbarian powers comes from his rage.
Fighter powers (echo knight, EK, Battlemaster) comes from training.
Wizard powers comes from study.
Ranger from training, even the spells.
Monk from training.

So you tell me that a naked guy can get increased resistances, incorporate the spirit of animals, run fast as ♥♥♥♥ just because he is pissed off but a guy can't do ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ just based in his commitment and faith in his oaths?

In 20 years playing DnD i'm just annoyed how paladins became the same as a templar.

Because, as we have tried to explain many times now, Divine magic MUST have the backing of a deity in the Forgotten Realms setting. That is the source from which divine magic originates.

When a Cleric uses magic, they temporarily transform their body into a conduit through which their deity is able to act upon the mortal plane without violating any sort of cosmic laws in the process.

Clerics do not study higher level spells. They are granted higher level spells from their deity. That is also why they get access to their entire spell book, while other casters have to build their repertoire over time.

-------------------------

Even Druids fall into this category as well. They may not be traditional priests, but nearly all of them worship Sylvanus, or at least highly revere him. Being the god of nature, Sylvanus IS nature itself. So by communing with nature, the Druids are effectively communing with Sylvanus.

Read oath of the ancients, to whom do you think paladin can swore this oath? I bet it has very druidic origins even. Lmao.
Maybe its because paladin can make an oath to the GOD, but oath can be of a divine origin so while following an oath paladin can follow deity without even knowing it, there is a reason why oath of conquest is bound to nine hells and hellknights for example

[Yojo0o]

Publicado originalmente por dulany67:

I found out this morning that in OneD&D paladins are in the Priest grouping. Does this affect anybody's thinking on this topic?

So are druids, right? Druids don't draw their power from gods, they draw it from nature.

[Yojo0o]

Publicado originalmente por GrandMajora:

Publicado originalmente por Siegdarth:

LOL?

Barbarian powers comes from his rage.
Fighter powers (echo knight, EK, Battlemaster) comes from training.
Wizard powers comes from study.
Ranger from training, even the spells.
Monk from training.

So you tell me that a naked guy can get increased resistances, incorporate the spirit of animals, run fast as ♥♥♥♥ just because he is pissed off but a guy can't do ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ just based in his commitment and faith in his oaths?

In 20 years playing DnD i'm just annoyed how paladins became the same as a templar.

Because, as we have tried to explain many times now, Divine magic MUST have the backing of a deity in the Forgotten Realms setting. That is the source from which divine magic originates.

When a Cleric uses magic, they temporarily transform their body into a conduit through which their deity is able to act upon the mortal plane without violating any sort of cosmic laws in the process.

Clerics do not study higher level spells. They are granted higher level spells from their deity. That is also why they get access to their entire spell book, while other casters have to build their repertoire over time.

-------------------------

Even Druids fall into this category as well. They may not be traditional priests, but nearly all of them worship Sylvanus, or at least highly revere him. Being the god of nature, Sylvanus IS nature itself. So by communing with nature, the Druids are effectively communing with Sylvanus.

Druids don't draw power from a god, they draw it from nature. Nature clerics draw power from nature gods like Sylvanus.

[dulany67]

Publicado originalmente por Yojo0o:

Druids don't draw power from a god, they draw it from nature. Nature clerics draw power from nature gods like Sylvanus.

A bit murky, no?

[Yojo0o]

Publicado originalmente por dulany67:

Publicado originalmente por Yojo0o:

Druids don't draw power from a god, they draw it from nature. Nature clerics draw power from nature gods like Sylvanus.

A bit murky, no?

A bit, sure. But there's still a line: priests need not worship gods to wield magic. Druids have always been distinct from clerics.

[GrandMajora]

Publicado originalmente por Yojo0o:

Publicado originalmente por dulany67:

I found out this morning that in OneD&D paladins are in the Priest grouping. Does this affect anybody's thinking on this topic?

So are druids, right? Druids don't draw their power from gods, they draw it from nature.

I just got done explaining different. Gods in D&D, or at least in the case of Forgotten Realms, do not simply rule over their portfolios. They effectively ARE their portfolios.

Gale explains to us that Mystra, the goddess of all magic, IS all magic itself. She both administers The Weave, and is The Weave at the same time.

Sylvanus, being the god of nature, IS nature itself. So when you try to commune with nature, you are communing with Sylvanus. Which is probably why so many druids worship and revere him.

[Yojo0o]

Publicado originalmente por GrandMajora:

Publicado originalmente por Yojo0o:

So are druids, right? Druids don't draw their power from gods, they draw it from nature.

I just got done explaining different. Gods in D&D, or at least in the case of Forgotten Realms, do not simply rule over their portfolios. They effectively ARE their portfolios.

Gale explains to us that Mystra, the goddess of all magic, IS all magic itself. She both administers The Weave, and is The Weave at the same time.

Sylvanus, being the god of nature, IS nature itself. So when you try to commune with nature, you are communing with Sylvanus. Which is probably why so many druids worship and revere him.

You can make the case that any magic derives from some deity or another, but that doesn't make anybody who wields magic directly drawing power from that deity. Gale is a wizard, not a priest of Mystra. Druids need not worship Sylvanus.

Perhaps a paladin's magic is indirectly generated by a god, but that makes them no more beholden to that god than a wizard is to Mystra. Just as a wizard's power depends on study and knowledge, a 5e paladin's power comes from the strength of their oath, not from the depth of their faith.

[GrandMajora]

Publicado originalmente por Yojo0o:

a 5e paladin's power comes from the strength of their path, not from the depth of their faith.

Wouldn't those two coincide with each other, though?

[Yojo0o]

Publicado originalmente por GrandMajora:

Publicado originalmente por Yojo0o:

a 5e paladin's power comes from the strength of their path, not from the depth of their faith.

Wouldn't those two coincide with each other, though?

Sorry, autocorrect, I meant oath.

Sure, perhaps you could define it as faith. But it's not inherently linked to a deity. You certainly CAN play a religious paladin who swears their oath to a god. Any class can be religious.

[Raï 𓆣]

I really love this thread and I love all of the contributors. I enjoy coming back to it to see what everyone has to say. I've learned a lot from you guys! But I notice the topic is becoming less clear and more confusing to me.

In-game it only says "The Oath" too. It's very opaque. From my (very) limited understanding, it appears that the writers themselves don't really know what the phenomenology of magic v.s. divine magic entails just yet.

I've read on the wiki that the world of Fearûn had entered the Age of Mortals, where the deities have taken a step back and no longer manifest avatars (for instance) to change things. Perhaps the deities and their respective portfolios are now fully hidden behind a veil and only reveal themselves to a few?