Goodberry / Create Food and Water

[GrandMajora]

Does Larian have any plans to change how much nourishment these spells provide during camping scenes? According to the actual table top rules, a single berry is supposed to provide you with enough nourishment to last for 24 hours. But in BG3, you could eat 10 of them and still not have enough for a full meal.

I know Larian put in survival mechanics, because all the hard core players whined about how people were spamming long rests (boo hoo, why do any of you care?), but they seem to have overlooked something vitally important.

Not everybody likes survival mechanics!

If they did, players wouldn't be using these spells in table top to begin with. Forcing the players to waste their gold on purchasing food, or scavenging supplies, just because some players thought spamming the camp button ruined the game for them is ridiculously frustrating.

First of all, what other players choose to do in their own copy of the game is none of their business. Second of all, nobody was forcing the try hards to spam the camp button in single player. If they wanted to take rests sparingly, they were free to do so.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

I know Larian put in survival mechanics, because all the hard core players whined about how people were spamming long rests (boo hoo, why do any of you care?), but they seem to have overlooked something vitally important.

Because classes are balanced around it. Why do Wizards get so many more spell slots than Warlocks, and why do Warlock's spell slots replenish on short rests as well as long rests?

None of that means anything at all unless long resting is somehow limited. If long rests aren't a resource you have to manage, then there's no reason to play any kind of caster except a Wizard or a Cleric (or Druid or Bard, I guess).

And it's not just spell slots, although that's the most obvious reason. Lots of other abilities are also balanced based on whether they replenish on short or long rest.

Unless you want to completely overhaul the entire D&D 5e resource system and create an entirely new system for magic, then balancing these abilities around rests is necessary.

That said, I don't know why Larian decided Goodberry should only provide 1 pt. of supply, or why they changed the amount of healing (increased it) while reducing the number of berries it produces.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

Because classes are balanced around it. Why do Wizards get so many more spell slots than Warlocks, and why do Warlock's spell slots replenish on short rests as well as long rests?

Screw balance! Survival mechanics are a pain in the ass, and everybody knows it!

The only, and I mean only reason Balance should ever be taken into consideration, is if you're planning to play this game in multiplayer. If you're doing it in single player, then it doesn't matter if the classes are balanced or not, because there's nobody else in the lobby to feel like they're being cheated out of the action.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

Because classes are balanced around it. Why do Wizards get so many more spell slots than Warlocks, and why do Warlock's spell slots replenish on short rests as well as long rests?

Screw balance!

I mean, that's all I need to hear.

What else aren't you interested in?

Again, I'm not saying that the system as it currently works is the best, but what do you propose to replace it with so that all classes are roughly viable and some don't clearly dominate (this is so important in regards especially to Warlocks, who get like 1/3 or less of the spell slots other casters get, that without it, it would be essentially pointless to play one).

I mean, should we give Warlocks just as many slots as all other full casters? If we did, what about the fact that Warlocks cast all their spells at the highest possible level, should that stay in?

You see, D&D 5e is built around the resource system of rests, and it being a limited resource. At the tabletop, a DM will not just allow the party to long rest as much as they want. They could impose time limits (perhaps the mission is on a timer), or they could use the possibility of ambushes, or they could impose resource limits (like food/rations), or they could just straight up forbid the party from resting constantly.

But in a video game, there has to be a hard coded rule, else the balance of the game goes right out the window.

Unlimited long rests means that there's basically no reason to play any other caster besides a Wizard (or other full caster, I guess).

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

I mean, that's all I need to hear.

What else aren't you interested in?

Again, I'm not saying that the system as it currently works is the best, but what do you propose to replace it with so that all classes are roughly viable and some don't clearly dominate (this is so important in regards especially to Warlocks, who get like 1/3 or less of the spell slots other casters get, that without it, it would be essentially pointless to play one).

I mean, should we give Warlocks just as many slots as all other full casters? If we did, what about the fact that Warlocks cast all their spells at the highest possible level, should that stay in?

I'm not proposing to replace it with anything. If people want to use survival mechanics, that's their business. But for those of us who don't want to deal with that bull crap, they should either make the spell work as it was intended to, or else just put in an option to disable the mechanic all together.

Warlocks don't need a massive spell slot reserve to compete with wizards. Everybody knows their bread and butter is the ELDRITCH BLAST cantrip, which they can infinitely spam, as well as customize with a wide variety of different effects as they level up.

You want to talk about balancing the Warlock? How about we address what happens when you take Eldritch Spear and Repelling Blast at the same time? Because that turns your cantrip into a 300 foot reach projectile, that shoves the target 10 feet backwards for each blast that hits them, which is about 3 by the time you hit level 11.

In other words, by level 11, you can shove somebody up to 30 feet backwards, while you're already 300 feet away!

[Runic Tunic]

Not gonna lie, you lost me with the "screw balance" part. I've seen this argument in other single player games and it never holds up. Balancing is important, regardless if it's single or multiplayer. It's not always for the same reasons, but some level of balancing needs to happen to maintain the player engagement. Which requires balancing of classes to some degree, and so on. If balancing didn't matter, then there's no point in gating abilities behind level requirements (which is a form of balancing)

I do agree that the current system in place does need some work, but just ripping it out as a toggle I don't think is a good solution. Too much of the abilities of classes are dependent on the rest and survival mechanics. It would require quite a bit of rebalancing to allow a toggle for it to be feasible at this point, IMO.

edit: I think the best solution would be to adjust the benefits survival items provide. I think that'll be addressed on full release when difficulty settings are in.

[[. . .] LEON]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Screw balance!

I mean, that's all I need to hear.

What else aren't you interested in?

Again, I'm not saying that the system as it currently works is the best, but what do you propose to replace it with so that all classes are roughly viable and some don't clearly dominate (this is so important in regards especially to Warlocks, who get like 1/3 or less of the spell slots other casters get, that without it, it would be essentially pointless to play one).

I mean, should we give Warlocks just as many slots as all other full casters? If we did, what about the fact that Warlocks cast all their spells at the highest possible level, should that stay in?

You see, D&D 5e is built around the resource system of rests, and it being a limited resource. At the tabletop, a DM will not just allow the party to long rest as much as they want. They could impose time limits (perhaps the mission is on a timer), or they could use the possibility of ambushes, or they could impose resource limits (like food/rations), or they could just straight up forbid the party from resting constantly.

But in a video game, there has to be a hard coded rule, else the balance of the game goes right out the window.

Unlimited long rests means that there's basically no reason to play any other caster besides a Wizard (or other full caster, I guess).

This is a bad take.

Its a role playing game. Wizards are SUPPOSED to be powerful beings that can cast amazing spells that decimate things, and virtually anyone will WANT one in their party, but having spells available isn't how theyre balanced since you cant just REST IN COMBAT.

Read what I typed again so it sinks it, here I'll even write it again;

HAVING SPELLS AVAILABLE ISN'T HOW THEY ARE BALANCED SINCE THEY CANT REST IN COMBAT.

That balance comes from having areas in which you cannot just rest, which DO exist in game, and situations where you cannot rest.

Wizards are "balanced" by their own inherent weakness. The weakness is balanced by them having spells at their disposal. Unneccessarily limiting where they can rest outside of combat actually inbalances them because then theyre just a really really weak HP sponge with a stick.

Warlocks are far more versatile, which is how theyre balanced. And maybe not everyone will prefer a warlock over a wizard or wizard over a warlock, but the point is the versatility and being able to choose.

In a video game setting, having to pass through loading screens and cutscenes is already limiting enough compared to tabletop that nobody is realistically going to go out of their way to long rest unless they feel its absolutely neccessary. What you're describing is just making things needlessly un-fun so that everyone has to play whatever party make up you prefer just to enjoy the experience and I sincerely hope they ignore these kinds of complaints.

[Dragon Master]

If I were Larian and when it comes to Good Berry, I'd have each one be worth 10 supply points. The spell summons four so if you save a spell slot and have 4 goodberries in the inventory then you can long rest.

I think that would be balanced because you would need a druid to have it.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by . . . LEON:

This is a bad take.

Its a role playing game. Wizards are SUPPOSED to be powerful beings that can cast amazing spells that decimate things, and virtually anyone will WANT one in their party, but having spells available isn't how theyre balanced since you cant just REST IN COMBAT.

Exactly. We're talking about a group of individuals who are able to unleash one shot kill abilities by the time they hit level 12.

Finger of Death

Disintegration

Flesh to Stone

All 6th level spells, and it only gets more ridiculous from there. At the heights of their power, the wizard is able to perform feats like conjuring 20 CR monsters into battle, freeze time itself, permanently transform victims into other creatures (or even objects), trap victims within a magical prison for all of eternity, and borderline warp reality itself by granting people's wishes!

I don't care how many years you invested into learning how to swing a sharpened piece of metal, the martial classes will never, ever hold a candle to the awesome potential of a magic user.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

I mean, that's all I need to hear.

What else aren't you interested in?

Again, I'm not saying that the system as it currently works is the best, but what do you propose to replace it with so that all classes are roughly viable and some don't clearly dominate (this is so important in regards especially to Warlocks, who get like 1/3 or less of the spell slots other casters get, that without it, it would be essentially pointless to play one).

I mean, should we give Warlocks just as many slots as all other full casters? If we did, what about the fact that Warlocks cast all their spells at the highest possible level, should that stay in?

I'm not proposing to replace it with anything. If people want to use survival mechanics, that's their business. But for those of us who don't want to deal with that bull crap, they should either make the spell work as it was intended to, or else just put in an option to disable the mechanic all together.

It's not about survival, it's about class balance. You have an entire caster class that only gets two spell slots precisely because they get them back on a short rest, and they are always cast at maximum level.

Entire classes are balanced around the rest system being a limited resource. If you toss that out, then you need to fundamentally alter these classes. Give Warlocks more spell slots or something.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by . . . LEON:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

I mean, that's all I need to hear.

What else aren't you interested in?

Again, I'm not saying that the system as it currently works is the best, but what do you propose to replace it with so that all classes are roughly viable and some don't clearly dominate (this is so important in regards especially to Warlocks, who get like 1/3 or less of the spell slots other casters get, that without it, it would be essentially pointless to play one).

I mean, should we give Warlocks just as many slots as all other full casters? If we did, what about the fact that Warlocks cast all their spells at the highest possible level, should that stay in?

You see, D&D 5e is built around the resource system of rests, and it being a limited resource. At the tabletop, a DM will not just allow the party to long rest as much as they want. They could impose time limits (perhaps the mission is on a timer), or they could use the possibility of ambushes, or they could impose resource limits (like food/rations), or they could just straight up forbid the party from resting constantly.

But in a video game, there has to be a hard coded rule, else the balance of the game goes right out the window.

Unlimited long rests means that there's basically no reason to play any other caster besides a Wizard (or other full caster, I guess).

This is a bad take.

Its a role playing game. Wizards are SUPPOSED to be powerful beings that can cast amazing spells that decimate things, and virtually anyone will WANT one in their party, but having spells available isn't how theyre balanced since you cant just REST IN COMBAT.

Read what I typed again so it sinks it, here I'll even write it again;

HAVING SPELLS AVAILABLE ISN'T HOW THEY ARE BALANCED SINCE THEY CANT REST IN COMBAT.

That balance comes from having areas in which you cannot just rest, which DO exist in game, and situations where you cannot rest.

Wizards are "balanced" by their own inherent weakness. The weakness is balanced by them having spells at their disposal. Unneccessarily limiting where they can rest outside of combat actually inbalances them because then theyre just a really really weak HP sponge with a stick.

Warlocks are far more versatile, which is how theyre balanced. And maybe not everyone will prefer a warlock over a wizard or wizard over a warlock, but the point is the versatility and being able to choose.

In a video game setting, having to pass through loading screens and cutscenes is already limiting enough compared to tabletop that nobody is realistically going to go out of their way to long rest unless they feel its absolutely neccessary. What you're describing is just making things needlessly un-fun so that everyone has to play whatever party make up you prefer just to enjoy the experience and I sincerely hope they ignore these kinds of complaints.

You completely don't get how D&D is balanced. Warlocks specifically have fewer spells slots to use during any particular battle, but get them back on a short rest, precisely due to the way the short/long rest system works.

If you toss out the rest system, then these classes aren't balanced relative to each other. In other words, if a Wizard can cast her entire allotment of spells during each and every battle without repercussion, then the Warlock falls woefully behind because they can only cast two leveled spells per battle, while the Wizard gets 7+. The Warlocks spell slots progresses so slowly, that by the time the Wizard is casting 10+ spells in every single battle the Warlock is still only casting 2 per battle, maybe 3 at most.

This means that the Wizard is FAR more effective in EVERY fight, because she is casting 3-5 times more leveled spells.

D&D balances this by letting Warlocks get their spell slots back between fights - with a short rest - while the Wizard only gets them back during a long rest (or from a single use of Arcane Replenishment), so they each must manage their resources uniquely.

However, throwing out the rest system as a resource management entirely simply means that the Wizard will always get to cast their full complement of spells each and ever time, so they don't need to manage that as a resource anymore.

I mean, this also applies to all full casters that get their spells back on long rests, not just Wizards, but it ultimately makes Wizards (and maybe Clerics) the most powerful casters, as they have the largest spell lists, and now the highest number of casts per battle.

To throw out the short/long rest system would require a rebalancing of the entire casting system, or at bare minimum a complete overhaul of the Warlock class.

And that's just spells - there are so many other abilities that are also balanced around the rest system, I only mention spells because they're the most obvious and powerful example of this.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by . . . LEON:

This is a bad take.

Its a role playing game. Wizards are SUPPOSED to be powerful beings that can cast amazing spells that decimate things, and virtually anyone will WANT one in their party, but having spells available isn't how theyre balanced since you cant just REST IN COMBAT.

Exactly. We're talking about a group of individuals who are able to unleash one shot kill abilities by the time they hit level 12.

Finger of Death

Disintegration

Flesh to Stone

All 6th level spells, and it only gets more ridiculous from there. At the heights of their power, the wizard is able to perform feats like conjuring 20 CR monsters into battle, freeze time itself, permanently transform victims into other creatures (or even objects), trap victims within a magical prison for all of eternity, and borderline warp reality itself by granting people's wishes!

I don't care how many years you invested into learning how to swing a sharpened piece of metal, the martial classes will never, ever hold a candle to the awesome potential of a magic user.

And limiting how many times they can cast is a fundamental aspect of they are balanced in D&D, which is precisely where the short/long rest system comes in, and why the various caster classes interact with it differently.

All those powerful spells are PRECISELY why a Wizard only gets their spell slots back on a long rest, and why long rest is a limited resource, so that they have to MANAGE their spell slots and use them tactically. Otherwise, they just blow all their most powerful spells every single fight, because there is no cost or repercussion to resting as much as you want. And if there's no cost/repercussion to resting as much as you want, then there's no real incentive to playing a Warlock, who cannot cast as many leveled spells as other casters.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

It's not about survival, it's about class balance. You have an entire caster class that only gets two spell slots precisely because they get them back on a short rest, and they are always cast at maximum level.

Entire classes are balanced around the rest system being a limited resource. If you toss that out, then you need to fundamentally alter these classes. Give Warlocks more spell slots or something.

No you don't. The long rest recharge thing works the same way in Table Top, and nobody complains about it there.

The only time you need to balance the classes, is if you're doing multiplayer and you don't want the others in the party to feel like useless mortals. If I'm playing the game by myself without anybody else around, then what the hell do I care about class balance?

Who am I making feel inadequate? The soulless NPC's, who are nothing but a set of codes and programming?

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

And limiting how many times they can cast is a fundamental aspect of they are balanced in D&D, which is precisely where the short/long rest system comes in, and why the various caster classes interact with it differently.

All those powerful spells are PRECISELY why a Wizard only gets their spell slots back on a long rest, and why long rest is a limited resource, so that they have to MANAGE their spell slots and use them tactically. Otherwise, they just blow all their most powerful spells every single fight, because there is no cost or repercussion to resting as much as you want. And if there's no cost/repercussion to resting as much as you want, then there's no real incentive to playing a Warlock, who cannot cast as many leveled spells as other casters.

Funnily enough, spell slots are nowhere near as much of a handicap as they used to be, when you realize that you can now upcast using higher level slots.

-------------

Allow me to break this down for you. A 12th level wizard can cast spells of up to 6th level, and has access to one 6th level slot, two 5th level slots, three 4th, 3rd and 2nd level slots, and four 1st level slots.

The iconic FIREBALL spell is a 3rd level, which deals a base of 6d6 fire damage in a 20 foot radius. For each level spell slot above 3rd, this damage increases by another 1d6.

Meaning: a 12th level wizard can cast one 9d6 Fireball, two 8d6, three 7d6, and another three 6d6, all before they need to take a long rest. That is a hell of a lot of explosive fireballs the enemy needs to watch out for!

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

It's not about survival, it's about class balance. You have an entire caster class that only gets two spell slots precisely because they get them back on a short rest, and they are always cast at maximum level.

Entire classes are balanced around the rest system being a limited resource. If you toss that out, then you need to fundamentally alter these classes. Give Warlocks more spell slots or something.

No you don't. The long rest recharge thing works the same way in Table Top, and nobody complains about it there.

The only time you need to balance the classes, is if you're doing multiplayer and you don't want the others in the party to feel like useless mortals. If I'm playing the game by myself without anybody else around, then what the hell do I care about class balance?

Who am I making feel inadequate? The soulless NPC's, who are nothing but a set of codes and programming?

You still don't get it.

Classes need to be (somewhat) balanced against each other. This has nothing to do with multiplayer, and everything to do with the incentive to play a class.

If you make Wizards into God-Kings, then what reason does anyone have to ever play a Warlock?

D&D isn't built so that casters use ALL of their spells every single fight, then sleep for eight hours so that they can wake up, chug a mug of coffee, and do it all over again.

The typical D&D 'adventuring' day is supposed to go something like 1-2 fights between each short rest, with a 'boss' or 'mini-boss' fight at the end of the day. A short rest is supposed to replenish enough of the party's resources to be able to handle the next 1-2 fights afterward, with the party's ability to handle the final 'boss fight' at the end of the day dependent upon how well they conserved their resources in earlier fights. A clever DM doesn't just throw Deadly+ encounters at their party all day long, and expect them to fully replenish after each one, they slowly chip away at the party through attrition, tempting them to use more power than they need to so that they come up short when it really counts.

Like it or not, this is how D&D is balanced, and classes (particularly caster classes) are balanced relative to each other around this concept.

If you get unlimited, resource free long rests for as long as you want, then the Warlock falls FAR behind all other full casters because they are limited to ONLY casting two leveled spells PER BATTLE. That's all they can contribute (besides cantrips), while the Wizards (and other full casters) will continue to blast away at enemies with their FULL COMPLEMENT of spell slots, and do so in EVERY SINGLE FIGHT, because there is no cost or repercussion to long resting afterwards.

At that point, you've made the Warlock class entirely pointless, because it is woefully less powerful than any other caster.

Without limited rests, you have to completely redesign the Warlock, at bare minimum.

That's an indisputable fact. That's just how D&D works, whether you like it or not.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

And limiting how many times they can cast is a fundamental aspect of they are balanced in D&D, which is precisely where the short/long rest system comes in, and why the various caster classes interact with it differently.

All those powerful spells are PRECISELY why a Wizard only gets their spell slots back on a long rest, and why long rest is a limited resource, so that they have to MANAGE their spell slots and use them tactically. Otherwise, they just blow all their most powerful spells every single fight, because there is no cost or repercussion to resting as much as you want. And if there's no cost/repercussion to resting as much as you want, then there's no real incentive to playing a Warlock, who cannot cast as many leveled spells as other casters.

Funnily enough, spell slots are nowhere near as much of a handicap as they used to be, when you realize that you can now upcast using higher level slots.

-------------

Allow me to break this down for you. A 12th level wizard can cast spells of up to 6th level, and has access to one 6th level slot, two 5th level slots, three 4th, 3rd and 2nd level slots, and four 1st level slots.

The iconic FIREBALL spell is a 3rd level, which deals a base of 6d6 fire damage in a 20 foot radius. For each level spell slot above 3rd, this damage increases by another 1d6.

Meaning: a 12th level wizard can cast one 9d6 Fireball, two 8d6, three 7d6, and another three 6d6, all before they need to take a long rest. That is a hell of a lot of explosive fireballs the enemy needs to watch out for!

And if they have free, unlimited long rests, then they can do that IN EVERY SINGLE FIGHT without any cost whatsoever, while the Warlock can only cast TWO spells per fight.