Is Monk the most hated class or something?

[Muado 93]

I hardly see people requesting that class for this game, it's always overshadowed by "When's bard being announced?", "Where's Dragonborn?", "Paladin when?", etc.

So what gives? Why do people give monks the cold shoulder?

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pumis:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pan Darius Kairos:

The best part of the Monk class in D&D is Unarmored Defense based on Wis, and the fact that they get this without Raging.

A Bladesinger-Monk multiclass, potentially, can get an AC of 25 just by maxing out Dex, Int and Wis.

They could also get items to increase that, as well as cast spells (such as Blur, Mirror Image, and Haste) to further increase their AC.

Like, if you just include the Bladesinger, you can truly become 'Neo' from the Matrix - a blur of fists and guns and bullet time.

By wasting lot of possible feats and ASI points. That 25 AC is meaningless by the time you get to that level. Not just that but pretty much all heavy armor users easily bypass that AC and generally even have higher hit points.
AC 25 sounds only impressive when you're between 1-5 levels. But then again you can't have AC that high so early.

Also you're wrong... You can only choose one type of calculation for AC.

Trolling again I see...

[Quillithe]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pan Darius Kairos:

You can't karate chop a bullet, or arm-bar a missile, or jump kick an artillery shell.

Well, you could do some of these things. Once.

[Dis Lexic]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pan Darius Kairos:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Quillithe:

People are really attached to the idea of which martial art is most practical in a street fight apparently.

I feel like this doesn't happen as much with other styles, you don't usually see people objecting that using two weapons really isn't practical and the like.

You know what makes ALL martial arts obsolete?

Gun.

Boom, yer dead.

Martial arts are mostly practiced for athleticism, entertainment, or as a career.

You can't karate chop a bullet, or arm-bar a missile, or jump kick an artillery shell.

Technology made all forms of martial arts obsolete - we do them because they're fun, and because athleticism is a great outlet. But not because we need to.

Guns are, after all, the great equalizer.

Thats not entirely true. It is true that on a flat plane, all else being equal, a dude with a gun will beat a dude with his fists any day of the week, but there are a lot of ways to deal with a gun and make it a non-issue. Guns arent much use if the dude with his fists sneaks up behind you and they become a lot less useful in confined spaces or if you are surrounded by people you dont want splattered over a nearby wall. There is a very good reason why military training includes melee combat.

[Panic Fire]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Muado 93:

I hardly see people requesting that class for this game, it's always overshadowed by "When's bard being announced?", "Where's Dragonborn?", "Paladin when?", etc.

So what gives? Why do people give monks the cold shoulder?

Monks have always been a bit of a niche class in DnD. On top of that 5e monks are extremely weak in comparison to most of the other Classes in 5e. On top of that you have the PHB monk subclasses which are horrible on almost all levels. Later monk subclasses over time have helped out the Class and made it interesting but still on the weaker side. Monks need a major rework to there class, but as 5.5e or 6e is supposedly in the works I think Wizards is planning on just waiting till then.

In BG3, you have a niche class of monk, which is very weak in 5e and will literally only have access to its two weakest subclasses. While it will be interesting to see what Larian does with monk I don't see anyone really biting at the bit to play one in the numbers needed to make a big deal over them.

[KeepCleaving]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Panic Fire:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Muado 93:

I hardly see people requesting that class for this game, it's always overshadowed by "When's bard being announced?", "Where's Dragonborn?", "Paladin when?", etc.

So what gives? Why do people give monks the cold shoulder?

Monks have always been a bit of a niche class in DnD. On top of that 5e monks are extremely weak in comparison to most of the other Classes in 5e. On top of that you have the PHB monk subclasses which are horrible on almost all levels. Later monk subclasses over time have helped out the Class and made it interesting but still on the weaker side. Monks need a major rework to there class, but as 5.5e or 6e is supposedly in the works I think Wizards is planning on just waiting till then.

In BG3, you have a niche class of monk, which is very weak in 5e and will literally only have access to its two weakest subclasses. While it will be interesting to see what Larian does with monk I don't see anyone really biting at the bit to play one in the numbers needed to make a big deal over them.

You're like the only person in this thread that understands the assignment lol.
Larian might have the imagination to fix Monk's shortcomings with gear. Also way of the open fist has a lot of forced movement that ends up being very beneficial in BG3.

[Panic Fire]

Diposting pertama kali oleh KeepCleaving:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Panic Fire:

Monks have always been a bit of a niche class in DnD. On top of that 5e monks are extremely weak in comparison to most of the other Classes in 5e. On top of that you have the PHB monk subclasses which are horrible on almost all levels. Later monk subclasses over time have helped out the Class and made it interesting but still on the weaker side. Monks need a major rework to there class, but as 5.5e or 6e is supposedly in the works I think Wizards is planning on just waiting till then.

In BG3, you have a niche class of monk, which is very weak in 5e and will literally only have access to its two weakest subclasses. While it will be interesting to see what Larian does with monk I don't see anyone really biting at the bit to play one in the numbers needed to make a big deal over them.

You're like the only person in this thread that understands the assignment lol.
Larian might have the imagination to fix Monk's shortcomings with gear. Also way of the open fist has a lot of forced movement that ends up being very beneficial in BG3.

Yep but those two PHB subclasses are just bad.

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/monk:four-elements


http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/monk:open-hand


http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/monk:shadow



As oppsoed to a more recent monk subclass like

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/monk:mercy

or

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/monk:astral-self


Monk is pretty weak imo. Monk and Ranger are notorious for being quite a bit weaker than other classes. Ranger got a major rework which is nice and feels better but ironically since Ranger's dmg is so front loaded you only need a few levels in it to make out with most of its dmg and utility. Monk on the other hand just feels weak.

[Tuco]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Panic Fire:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Muado 93:

I hardly see people requesting that class for this game, it's always overshadowed by "When's bard being announced?", "Where's Dragonborn?", "Paladin when?", etc.

So what gives? Why do people give monks the cold shoulder?

Monks have always been a bit of a niche class in DnD. On top of that 5e monks are extremely weak in comparison to most of the other Classes in 5e. On top of that you have the PHB monk subclasses which are horrible on almost all levels. Later monk subclasses over time have helped out the Class and made it interesting but still on the weaker side. Monks need a major rework to there class, but as 5.5e or 6e is supposedly in the works I think Wizards is planning on just waiting till then.

In BG3, you have a niche class of monk, which is very weak in 5e and will literally only have access to its two weakest subclasses. While it will be interesting to see what Larian does with monk I don't see anyone really biting at the bit to play one in the numbers needed to make a big deal over them.

I'm just wondering if Larian will go for a revamp and in that case if they will consult with WOTC or just come up with something on their own.

Also, worth mentioning on top of your summary that another problem of monks as a class is being "MAD" (multi attribute dependent).

[kharaa]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pumis:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Quillithe:

I don't think it's so much that they're mostly scams (though some clearly are) as that trying to fight someone with traditional eastern martial arts is like trying to navigate with an sextant, It's better than nothing, but we've come up with even better options since then.

And the character's an archetype just like barbarians or wizards or something - it's fine to like the idea of mystical martial artists without thinking it is a real thing.

There are tons of videos debunking wing chu, aikido, no-touch jutsu stuff.
Not just that but chinese MMA fighter went around traditional gyms challenging their masters and beating living ♥♥♥♥ out of them in fights. Chinese government didn't like this since it "kung-fu" is basically Chinese export and something that they feel proud about. So they decided to harass this guy and make his life living nightmare. What we see is just movie magic that doesn't really apply to real life. Where opponent's don't really resist... comes one by one and doesn't even know basics of how to get rid of some simple holds.

Fighting usually comes down to the instincts and if you practice useless art you can end up screwing up your natural reactions that would be far more superior than inefficient or overly complex move that demands that opponent just stands still and takes it.

"And the character's an archetype just like barbarians or wizards or something - it's fine to like the idea of mystical martial artists without thinking it is a real thing."
I never said that archtype shouldn't exists.

I wouldn't say that Aikido is a scam, just Steven Segall is. I've had positive results from using it when being attacked by one of my sister's friends.

I do agree though that Modern combat systems (even ones that are old such as Muai Thai) are generally superior. Krav Maga is pretty cool, though a lot of it's practicioners subscribe to some mystic nonsense. Not as bad as Systema Spetznaz tho lmao

[Aria Athena]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pan Darius Kairos:

The best part of the Monk class in D&D is Unarmored Defense based on Wis, and the fact that they get this without Raging.

A Bladesinger-Monk multiclass, potentially, can get an AC of 25 just by maxing out Dex, Int and Wis.

They could also get items to increase that, as well as cast spells (such as Blur, Mirror Image, and Haste) to further increase their AC.

Like, if you just include the Bladesinger, you can truly become 'Neo' from the Matrix - a blur of fists and guns and bullet time.

This is probably what I would play, assuming they included the sub-class. It's very close to my most usual playstyle in previous dnd editions and pathfinder.

[Aria Athena]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pumis:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aria Athena:

This is probably what I would play, assuming they included the sub-class. It's very close to my most usual playstyle in previous dnd editions and pathfinder.

His build is impossible due to the fact that it demands maxed out in 3 difference scores while multiclassing. There isn't enough ASI points to get 3 maxed out. Not even for two if he multiclasses. Do the math.

Not to mention that Blur and haste are concentration spells... thus can't be used same time if casted from same source.

So? I would still play a Bladesinger with a dip in Monk even if I can't max out all 3 stats. Just because I can't use Blur and Haste simultaneously, doesn't mean I don't want both. The important part is Bladesinger, which appeals to me a lot, and if the level cap is something like 13 or 14, I would gladly take a level Monk.

[Aria Athena]

I've been behind one level in spells as a sorcerer my whole life, it will feel right at home.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aria Athena:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pumis:

His build is impossible due to the fact that it demands maxed out in 3 difference scores while multiclassing. There isn't enough ASI points to get 3 maxed out. Not even for two if he multiclasses. Do the math.

Not to mention that Blur and haste are concentration spells... thus can't be used same time if casted from same source.

So? I would still play a Bladesinger with a dip in Monk even if I can't max out all 3 stats. Just because I can't use Blur and Haste simultaneously, doesn't mean I don't want both. The important part is Bladesinger, which appeals to me a lot, and if the level cap is something like 13 or 14, I would gladly take a level Monk.

He's trolling you, by attempting to nitpick points in an irrelevant manner.

Firstly, there's the option to roll for our stats - ASI's don't matter at all. Secondly, in my original comment, I specifically said that the Bladesinger-Monk potentially had the ability to get an AC of 25, if all three of those stats were maxed out. Pemis intentionally ignored this qualifier in order to troll/nitpick. And, finally, there are items that can be used to raise stats in D&D later on, there are even two such items we can currently access.

As far as Blur and Haste go, I listed them separately simply as two spells that could make you harder to hit - one giving a +1 to AC I believe (Haste) and the other disadvantage on attacks against you (Blur) which is generally regarded as effectively giving you +5 AC (or a -5 to hit). Also, just because your Blade/Monk character can't cast both herself, doesn't mean you can't have another character cast it for her, another nitpicking point Pemis completely disregards in his quest to try and 'prove' everyone wrong. He forgot that I have a party of 4-6 characters, each of which is capable of concentrating on a different spell.

I ignore Pemis, and I always regret those rare occasions when I open up his comments to see what he is blathering on about now, it's always a mistake and a waste of time.

[Aria Athena]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pan Darius Kairos:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aria Athena:

So? I would still play a Bladesinger with a dip in Monk even if I can't max out all 3 stats. Just because I can't use Blur and Haste simultaneously, doesn't mean I don't want both. The important part is Bladesinger, which appeals to me a lot, and if the level cap is something like 13 or 14, I would gladly take a level Monk.

He's trolling you, by attempting to nitpick points in an irrelevant manner.

Firstly, there's the option to roll for our stats - ASI's don't matter at all. Secondly, in my original comment, I specifically said that the Bladesinger-Monk potentially had the ability to get an AC of 25, if all three of those stats were maxed out. Pemis intentionally ignored this qualifier in order to troll/nitpick. And, finally, there are items that can be used to raise stats in D&D later on, there are even two such items we can currently access.

As far as Blur and Haste go, I listed them separately simply as two spells that could make you harder to hit - one giving a +1 to AC I believe (Haste) and the other disadvantage on attacks against you (Blur) which is generally regarded as effectively giving you +5 AC (or a -5 to hit). Also, just because your Blade/Monk character can't cast both herself, doesn't mean you can't have another character cast it for her, another nitpicking point Pemis completely disregards in his quest to try and 'prove' everyone wrong. He forgot that I have a part of 4-6 characters, each of which is capable of concentrating on a different spell.

No need to explain it, I had no misconceptions about what you said and did not ignore words like 'potentially'.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aria Athena:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pan Darius Kairos:

He's trolling you, by attempting to nitpick points in an irrelevant manner.

Firstly, there's the option to roll for our stats - ASI's don't matter at all. Secondly, in my original comment, I specifically said that the Bladesinger-Monk potentially had the ability to get an AC of 25, if all three of those stats were maxed out. Pemis intentionally ignored this qualifier in order to troll/nitpick. And, finally, there are items that can be used to raise stats in D&D later on, there are even two such items we can currently access.

As far as Blur and Haste go, I listed them separately simply as two spells that could make you harder to hit - one giving a +1 to AC I believe (Haste) and the other disadvantage on attacks against you (Blur) which is generally regarded as effectively giving you +5 AC (or a -5 to hit). Also, just because your Blade/Monk character can't cast both herself, doesn't mean you can't have another character cast it for her, another nitpicking point Pemis completely disregards in his quest to try and 'prove' everyone wrong. He forgot that I have a part of 4-6 characters, each of which is capable of concentrating on a different spell.

No need to explain it, I had no misconceptions about what you said and did not ignore words like 'potentially'.

Yeah, like I think right now in EA (if Bladesinger were available as a subclass), you could easily get a 19 AC at level 3 (because don't Wizards get their specialization at level 2?) by playing a human and taking a 16 in Dex, Int and Wis. That would be +9 to AC from stat contributions alone. Level 2 Wiz, level 1 Monk.

At level four you could take Dual Wielder and get another +1 to AC. Gith half-plate + shield +2 from Dex is only 19, so with only a 16 in all three of those stats, which you can start with at level 1, you are as effectively protected (while Bladesinging) as a martial character with Gith half-plate AND a shield. Blur, which you can get at level 3 as a Wizard, would give you an effective AC of 25 (+9 from stats, +1 Dual Wielder, disadvantage against you from attacks). That's almost as high as the highest possible effective AC currently possible in the game (I think I've seen a little bit higher with some weird, niche builds).

Then we can almost assume that later on we'll get items like Bracer's of Defense, Rings of Protection, and Cloaks of Protection. We could also Shield of Faith our martial arts mystic for another +2, and Wizards get access to the Shield spell for some temporary +5.

You can make this character almost unhittable, except by automatic hits.

[Aria Athena]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pan Darius Kairos:

Yeah, like I think right now in EA (if Bladesinger were available as a subclass), you could easily get a 19 AC at level 3 (because don't Wizards get their specialization at level 2?) by playing a human and taking a 16 in Dex, Int and Wis. That would be +9 to AC from stat contributions alone. Level 2 Wiz, level 1 Monk.

At level four you could take Dual Wielder and get another +1 to AC. Gith half-plate + shield +2 from Dex is only 19, so with only a 16 in all three of those stats, which you can start with at level 1, you are as effectively protected (while Bladesinging) as a martial character with Gith half-plate AND a shield. Blur, which you can get at level 3 as a Wizard, would give you an effective AC of 25 (+9 from stats, +1 Dual Wielder, disadvantage against you from attacks). That's almost as high as the highest possible effective AC currently possible in the game (I think I've seen a little bit higher with some weird, niche builds).

Then we can almost assume that later on we'll get items like Bracer's of Defense, Rings of Protection, and Cloaks of Protection. We could also Shield of Faith our martial arts mystic for another +2, and Wizards get access to the Shield spell for some temporary +5.

You can make this character almost unhittable, except by automatic hits.

I'll be very happy if they add Bladesinger, since it looks like a much better version of Eldritch Knight, towards which I'm gravitating right now.