Strength Based Dual Wield?

[GrandMajora]

What is the point to the Dual Wield feat allowing you to use full sized weaponry for two weapon fighting? Most of the weapon types that it unlocks are Strength based, and if you had actually been specializing in two weapon fighting up to that point, you were most likely using Dexterity based weaponry the whole time.

Unless you get the option to start with a feat at character creation, unlocking the ability to use strength based weapons with both hands seems like it comes into play too late to be a viable build strategy.

[RhodosGuard]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

That's a pretty exhaustive summary, the only thing I can add are some DPR calcs I did.

Two builds, Fighter-2W uses two shortswords with fighting style, whereas Fighter-2H uses greatsword with fighting style. Both have starting Str16, improving to 18 then 20. They're attacking AC13 goblins. No feats, no magic items, no buffs.

Fighter-2W, DPR
Level 1 = 8.8
Level 5 = 17.4
Level 11 = 29.6

Fighter-2H, DPR
Level 1 = 7.8
Level 5 = 19.3
Level 11 = 35.3

No real surprises. Question is just how do you want to fight? Heavy hits or a bit more AC and carefully placing the hits?

[Edit] Forgot to mention, Action surge favours 2H weapons. No extra bonus action.

Why? YOu can always only attack with your Offhand anyway.
The Dual Wielder fighting Style allows that attack to be on par with your main hand base attack. you basically get Extra Attack at the cost of a bonus action with an additional Action with Action Surge, because it means, for example, as a EK you can have 2 Melee Attacks and a Spell in one round. With Extra Attack you can have 2 attacks on one action, a spell, and an offhand attack. the only reason not to take that attack is to use shove instead, unless you are rogue and need to disengage or dash.

[brendan_in_china]

When you action surge with a greatsword, you double your DPR. When you action surge with two weapons, you don't get a second bonus action attack from the action surge.

e.g. a level 5 fighter action surging with two swords gets a total of 5 attacks - not six.

[RhodosGuard]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

When you action surge with a greatsword, you double your DPR. When you action surge with two weapons, you don't get a second bonus action attack from the action surge.

e.g. a level 5 fighter action surging with two swords gets a total of 5 attacks - not six.

So what? DPR isn't the deciding Metric for everything.
Being able to offset your attack to a Bonus action allows you to Dash and get an Attack without Action Surge. Disengage and Attack, Spread your Damage to Two Targets, or allow for an attack to be made the same round you cast a spell (True Strike + Offhand attack to increase chance to hit against low HP targets)

You can calculate haha funny numbers as much as you want, but the number you are trying to get to is not the main metric for why a certain way to play is picked.

The biggest problem rn, is that with this utterly limited choice of companions, there is little room to play with, when it comes to chosing your playstyle.

In the end, Dual Wielding you always get 1 more attack than someone using 2h because someone with a 2h can not attack on their bonus action on every turn.

[RealDealBreaker]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

When you action surge with a greatsword, you double your DPR. When you action surge with two weapons, you don't get a second bonus action attack from the action surge.

e.g. a level 5 fighter action surging with two swords gets a total of 5 attacks - not six.

So what? DPR isn't the deciding Metric for everything.
Being able to offset your attack to a Bonus action allows you to Dash and get an Attack without Action Surge. Disengage and Attack, Spread your Damage to Two Targets, or allow for an attack to be made the same round you cast a spell (True Strike + Offhand attack to increase chance to hit against low HP targets)

You can calculate haha funny numbers as much as you want, but the number you are trying to get to is not the main metric for why a certain way to play is picked.

The biggest problem rn, is that with this utterly limited choice of companions, there is little room to play with, when it comes to chosing your playstyle.

In the end, Dual Wielding you always get 1 more attack than someone using 2h because someone with a 2h can not attack on their bonus action on every turn.

Strictly speaking, 2w fighting shouldn't let you have a bonus action attack with your off hand without using the attack action:
"When you take the Attack Action and Attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a Bonus Action to Attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

[dolby]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

When you action surge with a greatsword, you double your DPR. When you action surge with two weapons, you don't get a second bonus action attack from the action surge.

e.g. a level 5 fighter action surging with two swords gets a total of 5 attacks - not six.

So what? DPR isn't the deciding Metric for everything.
Being able to offset your attack to a Bonus action allows you to Dash and get an Attack without Action Surge. Disengage and Attack, Spread your Damage to Two Targets, or allow for an attack to be made the same round you cast a spell (True Strike + Offhand attack to increase chance to hit against low HP targets)

You can calculate haha funny numbers as much as you want, but the number you are trying to get to is not the main metric for why a certain way to play is picked.

The biggest problem rn, is that with this utterly limited choice of companions, there is little room to play with, when it comes to chosing your playstyle.

In the end, Dual Wielding you always get 1 more attack than someone using 2h because someone with a 2h can not attack on their bonus action on every turn.

Nonsense, go play Berserker with two handed GWM.

You can use any of the bigger weapons 1d12 2d6...as off hand weapons.. Same as having extra weapon. You get the same dip damage same mark damage...

Just more of it cos GWM if you hit.. On top of that you can use GWm offhand attackand Polearm Master feat for extra bonus attack and some weapons have bonus attacks as well. All those attacks get a free stat damage modifier on top where in game you need to take fighting style to get it for dual wielding.

SO if we gonna multiclass Berserker into thief you can use all 3 bonus attacks (we get with items) combined with all the Main action that come with extra attacks. We still have no clue how extra attack will even work right now it's all just actions if Haste is anything to go by.


Only advantage with two weapons you get right now is having two items that give you item benefits in some way. That is it, that and +1ac. So it's all about metagaming with Dual Wielding right now.

That is why i said they need to give it abit more love. Adding all the weapon abilities from the off weapons would be a nice start so you get double use out of those. That would make it worth it for me. That and the visuals/role play the main reason i Dual Wield anyway cos it looks cool...

[brendan_in_china]

You know this disassociated off-hand bonus action attack is a Larian thing, right? Off-hand attacks are supposed to done in conjunction with a main-hand attack. Anyway, they're doing a whole lot of hijinks with bonus actions; hide, jump, shove. Expecting changes, watch this space.

You're dead right, DPR is not the only factor in choice. Personally, I prefer the sword and shield style because that's more about positioning the picking the frontline, not to mention it's all about being in-their-face.

But for the math, I like to be informed of what underlies each fighting style. I know the game designers paid this a lot of attention.

[dolby]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Anyway, they're doing a whole lot of hijinks with bonus actions; hide, jump, shove. Expecting changes, watch this space.

i mean if you gonna hide or shove mid bg 3 combat you may as well turn on god mode lol THe end result is the same.

[brendan_in_china]

Btw: if larian implements Magic item attunement limiting a character to 3 significant items?

I'm not worried.

When I've made higher level characters with starting magic gear, the attunement items generally were second choice. Fancy to have, nice to look at even, but overrated.

Yes, belt of giant strength is worth attunement. Holy avenger? Nope. Much better off with standard +3 sword and cast Holy weapon spell as required.

I can see this already in Act 1. The party is brimming with items and if I forget to use an item once too often, I give up and sell it or forget it at camp.

The two-weapon fighter is better off with +1 swords as is. (Not to mention, most of the items about don't deserve attunement.)

[brendan_in_china]

Originally posted by dolby:

i mean if you gonna hide or shove mid bg 3 combat you may as well turn on god mode lol THe end result is the same.

Guilty!

I've been abusing this like crazy since I grokked it but it's stupid powerful.

My mantra:
- If I shove I take no other action,
- If I hide i take no other action,
- I may switch weapons only once per turn,
- And I shall never save-scum.

[RhodosGuard]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

You know this disassociated off-hand bonus action attack is a Larian thing, right? Off-hand attacks are supposed to done in conjunction with a main-hand attack. Anyway, they're doing a whole lot of hijinks with bonus actions; hide, jump, shove. Expecting changes, watch this space.

You're dead right, DPR is not the only factor in choice. Personally, I prefer the sword and shield style because that's more about positioning the picking the frontline, not to mention it's all about being in-their-face.

But for the math, I like to be informed of what underlies each fighting style. I know the game designers paid this a lot of attention.

We're not talking 5e DND though, we are talking BG3, and here chosing Dual Wield over GWM means more versatility with all your actions. And even if I had to do both attacks in conjuncture it would still be 1 more attack I get every round, unless I absolutely need to opt into a different Bonus Action

Originally posted by dolby:

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

So what? DPR isn't the deciding Metric for everything.
Being able to offset your attack to a Bonus action allows you to Dash and get an Attack without Action Surge. Disengage and Attack, Spread your Damage to Two Targets, or allow for an attack to be made the same round you cast a spell (True Strike + Offhand attack to increase chance to hit against low HP targets)

You can calculate haha funny numbers as much as you want, but the number you are trying to get to is not the main metric for why a certain way to play is picked.

The biggest problem rn, is that with this utterly limited choice of companions, there is little room to play with, when it comes to chosing your playstyle.

In the end, Dual Wielding you always get 1 more attack than someone using 2h because someone with a 2h can not attack on their bonus action on every turn.

Nonsense, go play Berserker with two handed GWM.

You can use any of the bigger weapons 1d12 2d6...as off hand weapons.. Same as having extra weapon. You get the same dip damage same mark damage...

Just more of it cos GWM if you hit.. On top of that you can use GWm offhand attackand Polearm Master feat for extra bonus attack and some weapons have bonus attacks as well. All those attacks get a free stat damage modifier on top where in game you need to take fighting style to get it for dual wielding.

SO if we gonna multiclass Berserker into thief you can use all 3 bonus attacks (we get with items) combined with all the action attacks that come with extra attacks.


Only advantage with two weapons you get right now is having two items that give you item benefits in some way. That is it, that and +1ac. So it's all about metagaming with Dual Wielding right now.

That is why i said they need to give it abit more love. Adding all the weapon abilities from the off weapons would be a nice start so you get double use out of those. That would make it worth it for me. That and the visuals/role play the main reason i Dual Wield anyway cos it looks cool...

You cant dual wield 2h weapons, especially not heavy ones.
SO they cant be off-hand weapon. They are main-hand weapons always.

Also you are talking about a resource-depend subclass feature. So yea, if you play this particular class with this particular subclass and you are in Frenzy 24/7 then I guess you gain the same freedom with GWM.
Apart from the thing where you lose -5 to Hit.

Until you account for accuracy against the average DC, I dont care about min-maxing.

The point is, that in this Game in particular, not 5e DND, not the finished version of the game, in this state, during EA, getting Dual Wielder for Ranger/Fighter gives you way more Versatility.

Even a WL might get use out of it, especially like an Elf Warlock with Hex and dual Longswords.

If you are laser-focused on one class being able to emulate dual wielders versatility for 10 rounds 2 times per long rest, then sure. I guess Great Weapon Master is better.

[dolby]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Originally posted by dolby:

i mean if you gonna hide or shove mid bg 3 combat you may as well turn on god mode lol THe end result is the same.

Guilty!

I've been abusing this like crazy since I grokked it but it's stupid powerful.

My mantra:
- If I shove I take no other action,
- If I hide i take no other action,
- I may switch weapons only once per turn,
- And I shall never save-scum.

hehe we all done it. Those goblins sure can't fly.... Weee, look at him goo... :) Anyway i like those and occasional barrel explosions. But the game is just too easy right now to use them on any kind of regular bases at least for me.

Everything dies so darn fast.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by dolby:

SO if we gonna multiclass Berserker into thief you can use all 3 bonus attacks (we get with items) combined with all the Main action that come with extra attacks. We still have no clue how extra attack will even work right now it's all just actions if Haste is anything to go by.

Isn't a Berserker Thief just a marauding bandit?

[dolby]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

particular class with this particular subclass and you are in Frenzy 24/7 then I guess you gain the same freedom with GWM.
Apart from the thing where you lose -5 to Hit.

Until you account for accuracy against the average DC, I dont care about min-maxing.

The point is, that in this Game in particular, not 5e DND, not the finished version of the game, in this state, during EA, getting Dual Wielder for Ranger/Fighter gives you way more Versatility.

Even a WL might get use out of it, especially like an Elf Warlock with Hex and dual Longswords.

If you are laser-focused on one class being able to emulate dual wielders versatility for 10 rounds 2 times per long rest, then sure. I guess Great Weapon Master is better.

yes we are talking about the game... that -5 is there just for the damage. two handed are better off without it already due to higher die and not like it's hard get that +5 back
Especially with two bards buffing you and casting support spells on you. Advantage is beyond easy to get in bg 3 resting is broken... When we get a monk we gonna have even more options...


Anyway no, i'm not laser-focused on one subclass i'm more focused on multiclassing.
Cos just clicking next on level up is not my cup of tea when it comes to leveling up.

Frankly if we are just talking...and not going for minimax op builds.

I prefer like i said i Dual Wield cos of the visuals and it gives me extra item slot to play with. Not like the game is hard, one can use whatever and it's fine whatever. Dual crossbows are fun as well.

[dolby]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by dolby:

SO if we gonna multiclass Berserker into thief you can use all 3 bonus attacks (we get with items) combined with all the Main action that come with extra attacks. We still have no clue how extra attack will even work right now it's all just actions if Haste is anything to go by.

Isn't a Berserker Thief just a marauding bandit?

i would like to think that the bugbear trying to kill the tiefling in the druid camp could be a Berserker Thief.

[RhodosGuard]

Originally posted by dolby:

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

particular class with this particular subclass and you are in Frenzy 24/7 then I guess you gain the same freedom with GWM.
Apart from the thing where you lose -5 to Hit.

Until you account for accuracy against the average DC, I dont care about min-maxing.

The point is, that in this Game in particular, not 5e DND, not the finished version of the game, in this state, during EA, getting Dual Wielder for Ranger/Fighter gives you way more Versatility.

Even a WL might get use out of it, especially like an Elf Warlock with Hex and dual Longswords.

If you are laser-focused on one class being able to emulate dual wielders versatility for 10 rounds 2 times per long rest, then sure. I guess Great Weapon Master is better.

yes we are talking about the game... that -5 is there just for the damage. two handed are better off without it already due to higher die and not like it's hard get that +5 back
Especially with two bards buffing you and casting support spells on you. Advantage is beyond easy to get in bg 3 resting is broken... When we get a monk we gonna have even more options...


Anyway no, i'm not laser-focused on one subclass i'm more focused on multiclassing.
Cos just clicking next on level up is not my cup of tea when it comes to leveling up.

Frankly if we are just talking...and not going for minimax op builds.

I prefer like i said i Dual Wield cos of the visuals and it gives me extra item slot to play with. Not like the game is hard, one can use whatever and it's fine whatever. Dual crossbows are fun as well.

"When attacking with Heavy Weapons you are proficient with, attack rolls take a -5 penalty, but their damage increases by 10."

"Attack Rolls take a -5 penalty"
SO it's not "for the damage" it's a universal -5

As for bards, there currently are none in the game and you cant know whether we'll get 2 bards. As for Multiclassing pretty much the same, it isnt in the game currently and we dont know if it'll be there at all, and if it is, how it'll be implemented.

Either way that goes well until your bards take a hit and lose concentration.