Strength Based Dual Wield?

[GrandMajora]

What is the point to the Dual Wield feat allowing you to use full sized weaponry for two weapon fighting? Most of the weapon types that it unlocks are Strength based, and if you had actually been specializing in two weapon fighting up to that point, you were most likely using Dexterity based weaponry the whole time.

Unless you get the option to start with a feat at character creation, unlocking the ability to use strength based weapons with both hands seems like it comes into play too late to be a viable build strategy.

[Dome]

Rapiers are a d8 like the strength alternatives you're thinking of, and you could do strength based dual wielding if you wanted either way.

[Dome]

Also you're right, Dual wielding is pretty bad in general, its decent early on, but later as martial classes get extra attacks, its sub optimal.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Dome:

and you could do strength based dual wielding if you wanted either way.

Not really. Unless you pick up Dual Wield, you're restricted to only using Light and Finesse weaponry for two weapon fighting, which scales off your Dexterity modifier for attacks with them. You need to pick up Dual Wield if you want to use Strength based weapons, such as long swords, maces, est.

So again, unless you actually get to pick this feat during character creation and use strength based weapons right out of the gate, it seems pretty sub-optimal, since anybody who starts the game using two weapons is going to be focused on boosting their Dexterity in combat.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Dome:

and you could do strength based dual wielding if you wanted either way.

Not really. Unless you pick up Dual Wield, you're restricted to only using Light and Finesse weaponry for two weapon fighting, which scales off your Dexterity modifier for attacks with them. You need to pick up Dual Wield if you want to use Strength based weapons, such as long swords, maces, est.

So again, unless you actually get to pick this feat during character creation and use strength based weapons right out of the gate, it seems pretty sub-optimal, since anybody who starts the game using two weapons is going to be focused on boosting their Dexterity in combat.

The only qualifier for baseline two-weapon fighting is that both weapons must be light. Finesse is not necessary.

There's also nothing stopping you from using Strength while wielding finesse weapons, either.

[Ronin Gamer]

You can't dual wield versatile weapons that can be used in a one hand with a shield or two handed for a bit more damage. If you take that dual wield feat, you can dual wield those versatile weapons in one hand in both at the same time. Combine that with some special versatile weapons and you can hit pretty hard with that set up.
Making a ranger build out of taking the knight start at lvl 1 and build it from there until you get to lvl 4 and take that feat and you have pretty strong ac defense and hit pretty hard with both versatile weapons.

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Dome:

and you could do strength based dual wielding if you wanted either way.

Not really. Unless you pick up Dual Wield, you're restricted to only using Light and Finesse weaponry for two weapon fighting, which scales off your Dexterity modifier for attacks with them. You need to pick up Dual Wield if you want to use Strength based weapons, such as long swords, maces, est.

So again, unless you actually get to pick this feat during character creation and use strength based weapons right out of the gate, it seems pretty sub-optimal, since anybody who starts the game using two weapons is going to be focused on boosting their Dexterity in combat.

Yes, it's called building up to it. Not every build in a game that goes to 10 levels or higher is going to be fully up and running at level 1. Sometimes you build towards it.

[Yojo0o]

Unless BG3 isn't implementing it this way, just because a weapon is Finesse doesn't mean you MUST use dexterity scaling. You can be a strength-based wielder of shortswords all day if you really want to be.

[Dome]

Originally posted by Ronin Gamer:

You can't dual wield versatile weapons that can be used in a one hand with a shield or two handed for a bit more damage. If you take that dual wield feat, you can dual wield those versatile weapons in one hand in both at the same time. Combine that with some special versatile weapons and you can hit pretty hard with that set up.
Making a ranger build out of taking the knight start at lvl 1 and build it from there until you get to lvl 4 and take that feat and you have pretty strong ac defense and hit pretty hard with both versatile weapons.

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Not really. Unless you pick up Dual Wield, you're restricted to only using Light and Finesse weaponry for two weapon fighting, which scales off your Dexterity modifier for attacks with them. You need to pick up Dual Wield if you want to use Strength based weapons, such as long swords, maces, est.

So again, unless you actually get to pick this feat during character creation and use strength based weapons right out of the gate, it seems pretty sub-optimal, since anybody who starts the game using two weapons is going to be focused on boosting their Dexterity in combat.

Yes, it's called building up to it. Not every build in a game that goes to 10 levels or higher is going to be fully up and running at level 1. Sometimes you build towards it.

Two weapon fighting never even comes close to the damage of using a two handed weapon, and eats up your bonus action in a system that is desperate for your bonus actions. However there certainly are some tweaks to the rogue class in BG3

[dolby]

Originally posted by Dome:

Two weapon fighting never even comes close to the damage of using a two handed weapon, and eats up your bonus action in a system that is desperate for your bonus actions. However there certainly are some tweaks to the rogue class in BG3

they need to let us use weapons abilties for offhand weapons that will make it worth it for sure...

[brendan_in_china]

Variant human champion fighter crit-fisher.

My daughter's Str18 fighter4 has two attacks which crit on a 19+. One is a frostbrand doing an extra d6 cold, and sometimes uses poison on the other. Dice are doubled on a crit.

Str18 gives good climbing, swimming, jumping, grabbing, shoving, lifting and carrying weight. As a DM you see a lot of players struggle when they realize how gimpy their PC is during exploration because they've dumped Str.

Champions also get bonus jump distance from Str at level 7, although EK can pick the Jump spell.

BG3 is a bit tough because Str16 with two d8 longswords is only better at Crits than Str18 with two d6 shortswords, the latter hitting slightly more often. Once you factor in poison or dipping, the shortswords are better - although the +1 AC must be considered.

[brendan_in_china]

Originally posted by Dome:

Two weapon fighting never even comes close to the damage of using a two handed weapon, and eats up your bonus action in a system that is desperate for your bonus actions. However there certainly are some tweaks to the rogue class in BG3

Two weapon fighting is for better control of damage allocation. This is especially true for BG3 which lets you see monster HPs.

Easy access to poison and flame dipping benefits two weapon style the most.

Also, if Larian doesn't limit magic item usage through attunement, the two-weapon fighter (and sword & boarder) effectively has an extra magic item slot over the great weapon.

[Ronin Gamer]

Originally posted by Dome:

Originally posted by Ronin Gamer:

You can't dual wield versatile weapons that can be used in a one hand with a shield or two handed for a bit more damage. If you take that dual wield feat, you can dual wield those versatile weapons in one hand in both at the same time. Combine that with some special versatile weapons and you can hit pretty hard with that set up.
Making a ranger build out of taking the knight start at lvl 1 and build it from there until you get to lvl 4 and take that feat and you have pretty strong ac defense and hit pretty hard with both versatile weapons.


Yes, it's called building up to it. Not every build in a game that goes to 10 levels or higher is going to be fully up and running at level 1. Sometimes you build towards it.

Two weapon fighting never even comes close to the damage of using a two handed weapon, and eats up your bonus action in a system that is desperate for your bonus actions. However there certainly are some tweaks to the rogue class in BG3

If you want to sit there and act like you know what you're talking about, likely without properly testing a strength based dual wield set up, then by all means. I have tested it however, and it hits pretty damn hard.
It is a different way to play that you have to keep in mind different things from other builds, but it's not bad. Too many people get obsessed with this idea of finding what does the hardest hitting damage and then disregard any other play style or what that could bring to the table. Stop it, terrible way to look at things.

[Ronin Gamer]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Originally posted by Dome:

Two weapon fighting never even comes close to the damage of using a two handed weapon, and eats up your bonus action in a system that is desperate for your bonus actions. However there certainly are some tweaks to the rogue class in BG3

Two weapon fighting is for better control of damage allocation. This is especially true for BG3 which lets you see monster HPs.

Easy access to poison and flame dipping benefits two weapon style the most.

Also, if Larian doesn't limit magic item usage through attunement, the two-weapon fighter (and sword & boarder) effectively has an extra magic item slot over the great weapon.

Someone who actually has an idea of the benefits. Doing damage with two green or blue versatile weapons in each hand that you normally can't dual wield with their own bonus abilities or even just the +1 increase can hit pretty damn hard, and yes the ability to redirect one of your swings is also powerful.
A 2hander weapon fighter can either focus one lesser enemy down or try to do substantial damage to a bigger target, a strength based versatile dual wielder can take out lesser targets more quickly and land hard hits of their own onto that larger target, sometimes benefiting from multiple magic weapon effects.

If you take great weapon feat this is mitigated a bit by giving you the ability to have a second swing if you kill a target, maybe on a crit too? Can't remember on that one, but the dual wield option is still potent.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Unless BG3 isn't implementing it this way, just because a weapon is Finesse doesn't mean you MUST use dexterity scaling. You can be a strength-based wielder of shortswords all day if you really want to be.

I might be having difficulty understanding what you're saying. Are you telling me that Light / Finesse weapons will use either Strength or Dexterity, depending on which one is higher?

BG3 is my first real introduction to 5th edition's system, so I'm still getting used to how things work with the current edition.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Unless BG3 isn't implementing it this way, just because a weapon is Finesse doesn't mean you MUST use dexterity scaling. You can be a strength-based wielder of shortswords all day if you really want to be.

I might be having difficulty understanding what you're saying. Are you telling me that Light / Finesse weapons will use either Strength or Dexterity, depending on which one is higher?

BG3 is my first real introduction to 5th edition's system, so I'm still getting used to how things work with the current edition.

In 5e, Finesse weapons scale with either strength or dexterity, your choice. I assume that's how it's implemented in BG3 as well, but I'm not currently installed so I can't check.

The Light property doesn't change weapon scaling at all, it just governs which weapons can potentially be dual-wielded.

[mayrc]

long time ago this was the point of a ranger. He could take Dualwield feats for free as a class based choice. Without any dex requirements. This way he could dual wield heavy weapons perfectly and was a very viable build..... but then came DND4