Wizard Nerfed Into Oblivion.

[PepsiSucks]

While I get making Long rests more sparse is *kinda* better. It totally destroys the wizard class.

At LEAST give the wizard their Arcane Recovery on short rest if we keep this Food system PLEASE!

I mean Fighters get their action surge on short rest, and Wizards aren't even really good until mid-late game anyway when they've had time and resources to learn a bunch of spells.

I dunno. Just kinda seems like BS to me how much better fighters are than every other class. :/

[alex]

Opprinnelig skrevet av PepsiSucks:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Pumis:

Hmm two handed sword basic attack +2d6, haste attack +2d6, criticalhit/kill attack 2d6 (with two handed feat), action surge +2d6. Add there martial dices and flat +10 from two handed weapon feat. Plus fire buff 1d4. Then math would look like something like this:
2d6+13+1d4+2d6+13+1d4+2d6+13+1d4+2d6+13+1d4
= Average 90 damage in single round.
All of this while ignoring rest of the buffs he can get into the damage.

I'm glad someone else sees what I see. Fighter is ridiculously OP. And they're powerful without the limited resource of spells.

The math doesn't work out like that when you factor in AC. GWM is balanced by the -5 to hit, and it's balanced pretty well by that most of the time. It's only when you start combining things like PAM opportunity attacks and bonus actions that you start to see GWM really pick up in most scenarios.

As for Fighter being OP, they really aren't considering that they need to be enabled by the caster classes in order to be really effective in the first place.

It's easy to look at a GWM Fighter take out a group of enemies and see them as OP, but it often gets lost that that's only possible because the Wizard CC'd all of them with Hold Person or Web or Sleep in the first place.

[Cyroy]

Try looking around more. There is Soo much food, I genuinely think it still needs toning down. Long rests are still too easy.

[a.out]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Alex:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Sima Marlin:

5 e? wizard god of destruction? don't you mean sorcerers?

I lost my taste of wizards once they created 5 e, 3.5 they could solo gods on late level, now you just spam firebolt.

Oh and all the sleep arguments, sure fun spell, absolutely thrash past level 3, the change to per hp instead per hd made it horrible.

And grease praisers ? sure, let's use the class with most spells in the damn game and just spam one cantrip and one lv 1 entire darn game because rest need OH NOES CONCENTRATION shutting down all the fun combos because you just can't combo stuff anymore as they take CONCENTRATION slot.

5 e is simple and easy to play but I never will forgive wizards of the coast what they did to wizards.

You are seriously misrepresenting Wizards. The strength of Wizards at higher levels comes from keeping enemies trapped in a confined space and using continuous damage spells, having insane CC, and creative uses of some spells.

For example, you could use Planar Binding in order to get around the concentration requirements for multiple summons, which when upcasting these spells gets you an infinite amount of high powered summons that last for months or potentially years. Use Seeming on them every 8 hours, and you've created an army of monsters that look exactly like you, making it almost impossible for anything to target you when leading them into battle. And this is without using Simulacrum shenanigans to get some Warding Bond abuse in order to grant you permanent resistance.

Or you could go for something simple, like using Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall to basically instantly kill everything in the game. Or just as good, Forcecage + Sickening Radius in order to permanently trap something in an area that's slowly killing them.

To state that 5e wizards "Just use firebolt" or something is stupid. If you're a good Wizard, you almost never rely on Firebolt in any given encounter. Even at low levels you get cool combos like Darkness + Darkvision, and solid utility and control spells like Rope Trick, Hypnotic Pattern, Web, Haste, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Phantasmal Force and much more in order to bring something unique and powerful to every encounter.

Darkvision:

The subject gains the ability to see 60 feet even in total darkness. Darkvision is black and white only but otherwise like normal sight. Darkvision does not grant one the ability to see in magical darkness.


That's from d20srd.org. If BG3 is following those rules, then Darkvision + Darkness does not work. I looked that up earlier because I thought that would be a cool combo. Imagine my disappointment.

[Panic Fire]

Opprinnelig skrevet av a.out:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Alex:

You are seriously misrepresenting Wizards. The strength of Wizards at higher levels comes from keeping enemies trapped in a confined space and using continuous damage spells, having insane CC, and creative uses of some spells.

For example, you could use Planar Binding in order to get around the concentration requirements for multiple summons, which when upcasting these spells gets you an infinite amount of high powered summons that last for months or potentially years. Use Seeming on them every 8 hours, and you've created an army of monsters that look exactly like you, making it almost impossible for anything to target you when leading them into battle. And this is without using Simulacrum shenanigans to get some Warding Bond abuse in order to grant you permanent resistance.

Or you could go for something simple, like using Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall to basically instantly kill everything in the game. Or just as good, Forcecage + Sickening Radius in order to permanently trap something in an area that's slowly killing them.

To state that 5e wizards "Just use firebolt" or something is stupid. If you're a good Wizard, you almost never rely on Firebolt in any given encounter. Even at low levels you get cool combos like Darkness + Darkvision, and solid utility and control spells like Rope Trick, Hypnotic Pattern, Web, Haste, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Phantasmal Force and much more in order to bring something unique and powerful to every encounter.

Darkvision:

The subject gains the ability to see 60 feet even in total darkness. Darkvision is black and white only but otherwise like normal sight. Darkvision does not grant one the ability to see in magical darkness.


That's from d20srd.org. If BG3 is following those rules, then Darkvision + Darkness does not work. I looked that up earlier because I thought that would be a cool combo. Imagine my disappointment.

That combo exists but with warlocks. One of the warlock abilities is darkvision plus seeing in magical darkness. Then you have advantage on any enemy in the darkness and enemies outside the darkness can't target you.

[dolby]

The biggest problem is we have no clue how high max level cap will be or how all subclasses will look at the end or if they will fix resting.

Those unique spells and abilities could help but i guess we gonna have to wait for full release to see those in action...

But right now if i had to pick (assuming that learn ALL spells is a bug) i would take Sorcerer over wizard, hell even cleric is looking good and bard could be just bonkers when we get it...

[Arlen]

In a nutshell - manage your resources wisely - not every encounter requires you to blow through all your resources, cast stuff from scrolls with your wizard - spell scrolls are abundant throughout the game.

[Waffle-Insanity]

Disagree wholeheartedly. In the TTRPG making use of your spells for specific scenarios instead of dumping them all every encounter is part of the balance of the game.

Even now the long rest system is WAY too forgiving.

Think of it this way, the Warlock has 2 spell slots, gets them back on a short rest for a total of 6 possible every long rest. Period.
The Wizard has 7 spell slots and can regain some with arcane recovery for 2 more lvl 1 slots for a total of 9 per long rest, same for the Land Druid and sorcerer (sorta)

Having unlimited long rests was game breaking, and the wizards are STILL wayyyyy overpowered since they have access to cleric and druid only spells.

For every nerf, there is a balance sought, and even now the Wizard is leagues above all other casters.

[alex]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Pumis:

-5 is meaningless when taken into account magical weapons and several of different buffs such as strength potion and the weapon sharpening oils etc.. that combined with bless and easily granted advantage from several sources. There are some threads online about how OP GWM is even when taken into account the -5 hit chance. It's nearly always worth to pick it as melee fighter just like how sharpshooter is always worth it.

Sure, but we're making several positive assumptions in favor of GWM that create a misrepresentation of its actual strength. You're not always going to have Bless, or Oil of Sharpness (which is an incredibly rare consumable that you might even see in a campaign), or Strength potions to offset your lack of ASI's. In the vast majority of cases, you're heavily relying on your team to hand you advantage on a silver platter, or buff you to high heaven before you even reach these numbers; which is my point. GWM is not inherently that much more powerful. It's only when it's combined by effective teamwork and a myriad of other buffs, debuffs, feats and magic items that it becomes so.

Which is why saying something like "GWM Fighter is OP" is inaccurate, because the Fighter is never going to reach that level of strength by itself in the vast majority of cases.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Pumis:

"It's easy to look at a GWM Fighter take out a group of enemies and see them as OP, but it often gets lost that that's only possible because the Wizard CC'd all of them with Hold Person or Web or Sleep in the first place."
It's a group game but beside that fighters can get advantage easily enough on their own as well. There is pure math about this issue even while taken into account them being solo. Wizards just can't keep up with the damage until later levels.

How exactly is a Fighter going to get advantage by themselves? Outside of abusing the broken stealth mechanics in BG3 I mean. The only methods I can even think of are Battlemaster maneuvers, some of which aren't in the game yet, and 5e shove, which actually causes you to do less damage than if you just made another attack. (Some math behind this if curious. Assuming a level 5 fighter with GWM over an ASI leaves them at 16 strength. Also assuming you're hitting a target of 15 AC, which is pretty standard. Also a Regular Greatsword. Replacing one GWM attack with Shove gives you advantage on the second attack, which nets you 10 average damage. Just taking both attacks averages to 12 damage, so you're just losing damage by using shove for advantage here)

[Cyroy]

Genuinely, if lack of food is a problem you have, you either A: Don't explore enough or B: Long rest an abnormally large unnecessary amount.

[dolby]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Waffle-Insanity:

the wizards are STILL wayyyyy overpowered since they have access to cleric and druid only spells.

Thing is everyone is considering that to be a bug!

Even after a year so that alone indeed shows how op that would be if it wasn't fixed at some point...

The funny thing right, this "bug" is pretty much the only good thing about wizards right now so maybe it's not a bug after all. heh

[Arlen]

Wizards and pure arcane classes are supposed to be weak at the start, they don't really become dealers of massive mayhem until they get their 3rd level spell slots.

As I also pointed out, players are supposed to manage their resources wisely, going into a trash fight should not require anything more then a singlew CC spell, and then cantrips, especially in this game where cantrips are quite powerful. In other words, you are not supposed to nuke every encounter blowing through all your spell slots. The damn game gives tons of useful spell scrolls your wizard can cast at no penalty. Sleep scrolls, grease scrolls, Fog cloud scrolls, mage armor scrolls you can find just about everywhere, or buy from the druid merchant. Utilize your consumable resources before you use your hard resources. They are abundant throughout the game right now.

Pumis - the GWM -5 to hit becomes more detrimental as you face higher level enemies, that have higher AC/evade bonuses, What that -5 to hit does is take away your proficiency bonus, along with 2-3 points of your str bonus, so you are actually rolling at a disadvantage to hit. As the game stands, taking the GWM feat removes your +2 proficiency, and lose 3 points of Str bonus to hit. At level 4, you are rolling a d20+1 if you bumped your str up to 18. Doing the math, that means you must roll a 12 in order to hit AC 13, thats a 55% miss ratio.

[Arlen]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Pumis:

Opprinnelig skrevet av billybobtexan1000:

Wizards and pure arcane classes are supposed to be weak at the start, they don't really become dealers of massive mayhem until they get their 3rd level spell slots.

As I also pointed out, players are supposed to manage their resources wisely, going into a trash fight should not require anything more then a singlew CC spell, and then cantrips, especially in this game where cantrips are quite powerful. In other words, you are not supposed to nuke every encounter blowing through all your spell slots. The damn game gives tons of useful spell scrolls your wizard can cast at no penalty. Sleep scrolls, grease scrolls, Fog cloud scrolls, mage armor scrolls you can find just about everywhere, or buy from the druid merchant. Utilize your consumable resources before you use your hard resources. They are abundant throughout the game right now.

Pumis - the GWM -5 to hit becomes more detrimental as you face higher level enemies, that have higher AC/evade bonuses, What that -5 to hit does is take away your proficiency bonus, along with 2-3 points of your str bonus, so you are actually rolling at a disadvantage to hit. As the game stands, taking the GWM feat removes your +2 proficiency, and lose 3 points of Str bonus to hit. At level 4, you are rolling a d20+1 if you bumped your str up to 18. Doing the math, that means you must roll a 12 in order to hit AC 13, thats a 55% miss ratio.

That is weird take. You basically repeated what you said before for some weird reason when no one had responded to you and then you suddenly start to talk to me. Seems like you haven't changed at all within the year.

-5 to hit is even more irrelevant at higher levels when magical weapons and PROCIENCY bonuses with attribute bonuses comes as well. If you actually had played 5e before, then you would know that game has bounded accuracy system. So AC on enemies pretty much stays nearly the same.
As example end game Red dragon would be AC 19
https://5e.tools/bestiary.html#adult%20red%20dragon_mm

At that time players have proficiency bonus of +6 and usually attribute bonus to +5. Meaning +11 to hit. Your arguments are totally irrelevant on this part since it has been pretty much counted thousands of times before on min max forums related to 5e. GWM is always worth it as a choice if you're going for damage as martial class.
Also it seems that you fail to take into account how much flat +10 is actually in this game. IT's pure damage, no rolls for it. Without any attributes it would generally take 2-3(1 if you're extremely lucky with two handed weapon) hits to get that much damage on enemy.
One miss isn't a problem with said feat.

whats with the opening snark Pumis ? having insecurities or something?

to counter your argument:

The tradeoff is that as a two handed fighter, your AC is lower - thus you are easier to hit, enemies also havehigher AC's, more HP, greater attack bonuses. A wizard at the higher levels can do 5-8D6 damage to all enemies in a 30 ft radius just by using fireball, hald that if they all save without even taking feats. and you try to argue +10 to a single target fighter ability, that costs an ASI to use, is more powerful then a wizard. Lets take a look at the cantrip fire bolt - in this game it does 1D10 damage, and its at will. I would say that makes a single cantrip = to nearly all the great weapons in the game. And cantrips scale.

[Arlen]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Pumis:

Opprinnelig skrevet av billybobtexan1000:

whats with the opening snark Pumis ? having insecurities or something?

to counter your argument:

The tradeoff is that as a two handed fighter, your AC is lower - thus you are easier to hit, enemies also havehigher AC's, more HP, greater attack bonuses. A wizard at the higher levels can do 5-8D6 damage to all enemies in a 30 ft radius just by using fireball, hald that if they all save without even taking feats. and you try to argue +10 to a single target fighter ability, that costs an ASI to use, is more powerful then a wizard. Lets take a look at the cantrip fire bolt - in this game it does 1D10 damage, and its at will. I would say that makes a single cantrip = to nearly all the great weapons in the game. And cantrips scale.

Ah again with personal attacks. Not an opening snark. Just pointed out that it was weird that you even made second comment in the first place masquerade it as making new first one even though it was just addressed for me. Afterall you basically repeated what you said before on this thread and then made last segment to address me.

"The tradeoff is that as a two handed fighter, your AC is lower - thus you are easier to hit,"
Barely, any experienced 5e player knows that AC ends up mattering very little in the end game most attacks will end up hitting you anyway. As stated before... Bounded accuracy. That same Dragon has +14 to hit so your AC 20 doesn't make much difference to AC 18.
Thus you rather want to kill your enemy as fast as possible or have someone to CC them so they can't make an attack in the first place.

" A wizard at the higher levels can do 5-8D6 damage to all enemies in a 30 ft radius just by using fireball"
Now we enter to strawman arguments. I literally stated before that Wizards catch up in the late levels. You're basically trying to preach something to me that I had already stated before.

Basically after I refuted the whole non-sense about -5 actually mattering in this case. You decided to resort to strawman my position.

just stating the facts Pumis. That is not strawmanning. The topic is about wizards and fighters So how about a better comparison - a wizard gets burning Ray at lvl 3 - 3d8 damage.

[Arlen]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Pumis:

Opprinnelig skrevet av billybobtexan1000:

just stating the facts Pumis. That is not strawmanning. The topic is about wizards and fighters

That is literally strawmaning. Topic is about wizards that is true, but I never said that wizards would be worse than fighters at late level. I were always talking about early game. Thus you were strawmaning me.

In early game they get a d10 damage cantrip - at will before a fighter can even use their ASI to take the GWM feat. so spare me the argument they are weaker then fighters early game. They get a cantrip that does 1d8 damage and slows the enemy, a cantrip that does 1d8 damage and makes the enemy lose their reactions, from the start. Not my fault if you or others do not know how to use cantrips.

[Arlen]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Pumis:

Opprinnelig skrevet av billybobtexan1000:

In early game they get a d10 damage cantrip - at will before a fighter can even use their ASI to take the GWM feat. so spare me the argument they are weaker then fighters early game.

In early game fighter can use 2d6 two-handed sword that also adds their STR to the damage. That would be 2d6+3 vs d10
Your cantrip does 5.5 damage on average while the two handed does 10 damage on average. You think that fighters fight empty handed? Wizard doesn't get attribute bonuses to their cantrips.

No offence but it seems to me that you're just bored and you're looking for someone to argue with. You have very weak case in here.

Can a fighters normal attack add conditional effects? Ray of frost - a cantrip, 1d8 damage and slows the enemy. Shicking Grasp, 1d8 damage and enemy loses their reaction. Again - not my fault if you or others fail to understand how powerful cantrips really are, and makes them much more valuable then a fighter using a two handed weapon, whose AC is at best 17.