Discussion on Simple Weapons.

[Wolff]

I’m sure this has been discussed before but I just couldn’t find it.

One thing I would love to see for final or even sooner, is that simple weapons can get their bonuses from dexterity or strength builds. Like Shadowheart for example, she is a cleric and putting a dagger on her for more damage then a mace, is just wrong in my opinion. In my playthrough right now I dropped the dagger for XYANYDE. It just feels right and looks way better.
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Xyanyde

[Stardama69]

Why would a mage even need to use weapons in the first place ? Not trolling, just asking, I'm not familiar with the lore. I can't help but think of that ridiculous scene in Netflix's The Witcher where Yennefer, a highly powerful sorceress, chooses to fight a bunch of thugs with dual-wielded swords for no reason one could think of. Are there justifications for that in the world of D&D ?

[Спартак здесь?]

well the game doesnt consider xyanyde as a finesse weapon so there you go

[Wolff]

My MC is a Eldritch Knight this playthrough. No complaints at all and I'm having a blast. This topic was mainly based on simple weapons not just Shadowheart.

[Wolff]

引用自 Спартак здесь?：

well the game doesnt consider xyanyde as a finesse weapon so there you go

Read it wrong my apologies.

https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Xyanyde

Wow I can feel the heat.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

引用自 Stardama69：

Why would a mage even need to use weapons in the first place ? Not trolling, just asking, I'm not familiar with the lore. I can't help but think of that ridiculous scene in Netflix's The Witcher where Yennefer, a highly powerful sorceress, chooses to fight a bunch of thugs with dual-wielded swords for no reason one could think of. Are there justifications for that in the world of D&D ?

Bladesinger.

Also, there aren't really hard restrictions one weapons/armor like their used to be (although Druids may not be able to use metal armor, which I think is stupid...but anyway), their's just proficiency. Anyone can try to hit with any weapon, but without proficiency, you're going to suck at it. Typically Wizards don't get proficiency in much of anything (I guess just simple weapons), but races do, so play an Elfen Wizard, for example, and you can wield a longsword just fine.

[TheBlueFox]

Well, I mean...

It depends how your mage is built. There are many spells out there that enhance your melee capability. You can use Mage Armor + Blur or Mirror image to get really good AC, you can use All manner of Magical spells (Booming blade, Green flame blade, Haste)

And then there's one of my favorite "What the hell is this?" spells.

Tenser's Transformation (Level 6 Wizard spell)

You endow yourself with endurance and martial prowess fueled by magic. Until the spell ends, you can’t cast spells, and you gain the following benefits:
- You gain 50 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost.
- You have advantage on attack rolls that you make with simple and martial weapons.
- When you hit a target with a weapon attack, that target takes an extra 2d12 force
damage.
- You have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons.
- You have proficiency in Strength and Constitution saving throws.
- You can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn. You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks.

Immediately after the spell ends, you must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.

[Stardama69]

引用自 TheBlueFox：

Well, I mean...

It depends how your mage is built. There are many spells out there that enhance your melee capability. You can use Mage Armor + Blur or Mirror image to get really good AC, you can use All manner of Magical spells (Booming blade, Green flame blade, Haste)

And then there's one of my favorite "What the hell is this?" spells.

Tenser's Transformation (Level 6 Wizard spell)

You endow yourself with endurance and martial prowess fueled by magic. Until the spell ends, you can’t cast spells, and you gain the following benefits:
- You gain 50 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost.
- You have advantage on attack rolls that you make with simple and martial weapons.
- When you hit a target with a weapon attack, that target takes an extra 2d12 force
damage.
- You have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons.
- You have proficiency in Strength and Constitution saving throws.
- You can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn. You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks.

Immediately after the spell ends, you must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.

Very impressive. Sounds like you can make your wizard a better fighter than actual fighters, albeit temporarily

[Panic Fire]

引用自 Stardama69：

引用自 TheBlueFox：

Well, I mean...

It depends how your mage is built. There are many spells out there that enhance your melee capability. You can use Mage Armor + Blur or Mirror image to get really good AC, you can use All manner of Magical spells (Booming blade, Green flame blade, Haste)

And then there's one of my favorite "What the hell is this?" spells.

Tenser's Transformation (Level 6 Wizard spell)

You endow yourself with endurance and martial prowess fueled by magic. Until the spell ends, you can’t cast spells, and you gain the following benefits:
- You gain 50 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost.
- You have advantage on attack rolls that you make with simple and martial weapons.
- When you hit a target with a weapon attack, that target takes an extra 2d12 force
damage.
- You have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons.
- You have proficiency in Strength and Constitution saving throws.
- You can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn. You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks.

Immediately after the spell ends, you must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.

Very impressive. Sounds like you can make your wizard a better fighter than actual fighters, albeit temporarily

Not really. 6th level spells come in at Wizard level 11.
Which is when fighters get extra attack x2 which lets them attack 3 times per action.

[Wolff]

Would a battlemage get bonuses for both?
Edit: Ah only fighters get extra attack

Probably just dreaming and I'm not sure what to call it in multi/class. I tried a playthrough couple of patches ago with a Githyanki wizard.

She didn't have the headband yet and I can't remember if the headband would give her more spells slots or not since her base intel is low.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2390231477

Think I'm going to role another Githyanki wizard for patch 5, why not.

[Alealexi]

引用自 Stardama69：

引用自 TheBlueFox：

Well, I mean...

It depends how your mage is built. There are many spells out there that enhance your melee capability. You can use Mage Armor + Blur or Mirror image to get really good AC, you can use All manner of Magical spells (Booming blade, Green flame blade, Haste)

And then there's one of my favorite "What the hell is this?" spells.

Tenser's Transformation (Level 6 Wizard spell)

You endow yourself with endurance and martial prowess fueled by magic. Until the spell ends, you can’t cast spells, and you gain the following benefits:
- You gain 50 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost.
- You have advantage on attack rolls that you make with simple and martial weapons.
- When you hit a target with a weapon attack, that target takes an extra 2d12 force
damage.
- You have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons.
- You have proficiency in Strength and Constitution saving throws.
- You can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn. You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks.

Immediately after the spell ends, you must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.

Very impressive. Sounds like you can make your wizard a better fighter than actual fighters, albeit temporarily

Funny enough that you can't even use armor until after you use the spell. Which then can take multiple rounds just to put it on. Example it take 10 minutes to put on heavy armor and the spell lasts for 10 minutes. You also can't cast spells if you have armor on you are no proficient in. So you will be fighting without armor. Just ignore the armor part of the spell and enjoy the rest.

[RealDealBreaker]

引用自 dolby：

Having rapiers as only 1d8 dex weapon is just whatever to say it kindly. i mean what happens if i hate rapiers as player i guess i need a mod just to get that reskin.

While I understand (and agree to some extent) with the sentiment, few dex weapons are high damage dice weapons becasue dex is already a 'god' stat. Dex gives you a better iniitative, higher AC, increased dex saves (one of the most common saves), is associated with several skills, is used for ranged weapon attacks and finesse melee attacks. Meanwhile strength affects carry weight (not really a thing that serves as a real limit in BG3 or most tabletop games of 5e), strength saves (a rare save type and usually associated with forced movement rather than damage), melee weapon attacks, throw weapon attacks, and the athletics skill. Pumping up dex gets you a ton of benefits compared to pumping strength, so at least having the best melee weapons key off of strength does something to at least wave i the direction of balance. If simple weapons could all be used with dex, then there would be next to no reason to make a strength based character outside of RP reasons.

[Wolff]

引用自 RealDealBreaker：

引用自 dolby：

Having rapiers as only 1d8 dex weapon is just whatever to say it kindly. i mean what happens if i hate rapiers as player i guess i need a mod just to get that reskin.

While I understand (and agree to some extent) with the sentiment, few dex weapons are high damage dice weapons becasue dex is already a 'god' stat. Dex gives you a better iniitative, higher AC, increased dex saves (one of the most common saves), is associated with several skills, is used for ranged weapon attacks and finesse melee attacks. Meanwhile strength affects carry weight (not really a thing that serves as a real limit in BG3 or most tabletop games of 5e), strength saves (a rare save type and usually associated with forced movement rather than damage), melee weapon attacks, throw weapon attacks, and the athletics skill. Pumping up dex gets you a ton of benefits compared to pumping strength, so at least having the best melee weapons key off of strength does something to at least wave i the direction of balance. If simple weapons could all be used with dex, then there would be next to no reason to make a strength based character outside of RP reasons.

Very true, kind of a game breaker than.

[Stardama69]

引用自 Panic Fire：

引用自 Stardama69：

Very impressive. Sounds like you can make your wizard a better fighter than actual fighters, albeit temporarily

Not really. 6th level spells come in at Wizard level 11.
Which is when fighters get extra attack x2 which lets them attack 3 times per action.

1 more attack (Tenser Wizard has 2) vs additional hit points, advantage in attack rolls, extra damage, proficiency in saving throws... Sounds better to me. However what Alealexi said about not being able to wear armor sounds indeed like a big detriment. So you might outdamage a fighter but you'll still be fragile in melee. Or am I off the mark ?

[dolby]

引用自 SnarkOne：

引用自 pandariuskairos：

You're stereotyping clerics - finesse weapons are perfect for a Trickery domain based cleric, which is what Shadowheart is.

Clerics built for Str will do better with those weapons. The system as it exists now is fine.

I agree...

Think of it like this. If you were an assasin/special OP for the Lady of Darkness/Mistress of the Night... which weapon would be more efficient for your missions?
A mace that makes a ton of noise and increases your encumbrance thus making you more detectable and suspicious, or a sharp light dagger that you can pull out and put away at a moment's notice?

The problem with all this is you can have a dagger on you all the time it's a sidearm weapon! Infact that is the biggest problem with dagger in every crpg most rpgs as well. Thay are made in to primary weapons, which are not at all. They are not even secondary weapons it allways was and will be a sidearm weapon. So making them primary weapons just goes at odds with any kind of logic. So draging logic into this is impractical.
At best, primary use would be as throwing knives but even those are not the same as melee daggers but ok at least it's got some logic behind it.

All this is just a rpg leftover from rpg devs that had no swordsmanship or any kind of weapon smithing - hoplology knowledge from pre gunpowder era.

[Panic Fire]

引用自 Stardama69：

引用自 Panic Fire：

Not really. 6th level spells come in at Wizard level 11.
Which is when fighters get extra attack x2 which lets them attack 3 times per action.

1 more attack (Tenser Wizard has 2) vs additional hit points, advantage in attack rolls, extra damage, proficiency in saving throws... Sounds better to me. However what Alealexi said about not being able to wear armor sounds indeed like a big detriment. So you might outdamage a fighter but you'll still be fragile in melee. Or am I off the mark ?

Fighters get 3 attacks vs tensors 2, has access to action surge which would give them 6 attacks to open with, and then you roll into the fighters sub-classes. which are very front loaded and get 80% of it by level 10.

They also would have an extra Feat or ASI at level 6.


Lets take a look at Samurai Fighter

Use Bonus action to use Fighting Spirit, gain 10 temp hitpoints, and gain advantage to all attacks for this turn.

Attack (at advantage) 1,2,3
Action Surge
Attack (at advantage) 1,2,3

That's the difference between a Tenser Wizard and a Fighter.


With fighters getting 3 attacks to the tensors 2 . This puts them at +4 attacks on the first turn, +5 on turn 2, +6 on turn 3 and so on.