Leveling up doesnt feel like DND

[Jzoo]

In other DND games before BG3, leveling up has always been a detailed process. one in which I often made mistakes and often felt overwhelmed and had to google or search what this was and how it worked before investing a "Feat". Unfortunately for BG3, these other games have left an impression of what feels "Right" during the level up process for a DND video game. And i just feel like the leveling up process in BG3 has been dumb'd down and overly simplified.

Anyone else feel this way?
Anyone want to tell me that its in early release and isnt complete? lol
Just worried. Got big hopes for this game and im looking forward to playing paladin.

[Dorok]

Language barrier, it's not feats that are basic it's the 5e feats SYSTEM that is basic, at least from what I saw in Solasta.

I can understand that requirements can add too much complexity, but no requirement means much weaker base design. Just a flat set of choice, this is very basic, and it limits designs. Do that in Fallout 1&2, lol, you'll destroy all the flavor if you remove the requirements.

[Dorok]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Laurone:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Panic Fire:

And lets not forget many classes in 3.5 have dead levels. I don't think there are any dead levels in 5e.

You either get a new class ability.
A new subclass ability.
Extra Attack
New Spell level
or an ASI/Feat

pretty much every level as far as I know.

I may be wrong of course so please correct me, but I don't remember 5e actually having any dead levels.

Even before 3.5 because in BG1, and most part of BG2, leveling is just push a button and expect a good hit dice is rolled
I really don't understand what is the point of the OP now that I remember that

2.5e or more 3.5e:
- Every 3 level pick a new feat.
- At some levels for some classes there are extra special feat to pick.
- Every 4 levels increase attribute.
- Every level increase skills.
- I skip the spells aspect, classes with spells tend have less feats pick.

5e:
- Every 4 level increase attributes of 2, 1/1, or feat/1 or feat.

Lol and you want compare?

I can't find the references but you pick feats every 3 levels, more for some classes, some extra feats to choose for some classes at precise levels, attribute was every 4 levels, skills was I don't remind at each level up probably.

[dolby]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Laurone:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Panic Fire:

And lets not forget many classes in 3.5 have dead levels. I don't think there are any dead levels in 5e.

You either get a new class ability.
A new subclass ability.
Extra Attack
New Spell level
or an ASI/Feat

pretty much every level as far as I know.

I may be wrong of course so please correct me, but I don't remember 5e actually having any dead levels.

Even before 3.5 because in BG1, and most part of BG2, leveling is just push a button and expect a good hit dice is rolled
I really don't understand what is the point of the OP now that I remember that

I guess i would want improment on 20+ years old feature? It's a video game there is no reason to have monotonous leveling or restrictive leveling there is a fundamental difference on how and how fast you level in table top vs video game. So susceptible or in need of a change.

In my opnion to based leveling purely around table top rules is not best option for a video game.

The saving grace is multiclassing in 5e so hopefully we get that in game and that will make this alot more intresting. As right now it's kinda boring together with rolling stats it will make this system ok in my book IF they add those two things.

[Jack Hawklight]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von dolby:

I guess i would want improment on 20+ years old feature? It's a video game there is no reason to have monotonous leveling or restrictive leveling there is a fundamental difference on how and how fast you level in table top vs video game. So susceptible or in need of a change.

In my opnion to based leveling purely around table top rules is not best option for a video game.

The saving grace is multiclassing in 5e so hopefully we get that in game and that will make this alot more intresting. As right now it's kinda boring together with rolling stats it will make this system ok in my book IF they add those two things.

Hopefully they add in multiclassing sooner rather than later as that is a system that I could see as requiring a lot of testing and feedback.

[dolby]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Funniesthobo:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von dolby:

I guess i would want improment on 20+ years old feature? It's a video game there is no reason to have monotonous leveling or restrictive leveling there is a fundamental difference on how and how fast you level in table top vs video game. So susceptible or in need of a change.

In my opnion to based leveling purely around table top rules is not best option for a video game.

The saving grace is multiclassing in 5e so hopefully we get that in game and that will make this alot more intresting. As right now it's kinda boring together with rolling stats it will make this system ok in my book IF they add those two things.

Hopefully they add in multiclassing sooner rather than later as that is a system that I could see as requiring a lot of testing and feedback.

well i just hope we get it cos that would indeed be alot more fun...and options

[Panic Fire]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Dorok:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Laurone:

Even before 3.5 because in BG1, and most part of BG2, leveling is just push a button and expect a good hit dice is rolled
I really don't understand what is the point of the OP now that I remember that

2.5e or more 3.5e:
- Every 3 level pick a new feat.
- At some levels for some classes there are extra special feat to pick.
- Every 4 levels increase attribute.
- Every level increase skills.
- I skip the spells aspect, classes with spells tend have less feats pick.

5e:
- Every 4 level increase attributes of 2, 1/1, or feat/1 or feat.

Lol and you want compare?

I can't find the references but you pick feats every 3 levels, more for some classes, some extra feats to choose for some classes at precise levels, attribute was every 4 levels, skills was I don't remind at each level up probably.

And yet 3.5 has dead levels, and 5e doesn't.

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Panic Fire:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Dorok:

2.5e or more 3.5e:
- Every 3 level pick a new feat.
- At some levels for some classes there are extra special feat to pick.
- Every 4 levels increase attribute.
- Every level increase skills.
- I skip the spells aspect, classes with spells tend have less feats pick.

5e:
- Every 4 level increase attributes of 2, 1/1, or feat/1 or feat.

Lol and you want compare?

I can't find the references but you pick feats every 3 levels, more for some classes, some extra feats to choose for some classes at precise levels, attribute was every 4 levels, skills was I don't remind at each level up probably.

And yet 3.5 has dead levels, and 5e doesn't.

Really? Then perhaps explain this entire thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614801-Do-you-think-there-are-any-quot-dead-levels-quot-in-5E

Dead levels are a concept which means it really depends on how you define it. Originally the concept was a level in which you gained nothing but numerical value bonuses like a +1 to save, etc.

But as you can see such as this thought here: "Cleric 14 is a dead level. Yay, now, at level 14, you can kill off CR3 undead instead of CR2. Really?"

The sentiment behind what a dead level is remains even in 5e.

[RealDealBreaker]

Oh look, the people are still arguing past each other about about preferences....

[Dorok]

It's not about preferences, that's the point, pure facts. How many time you make no choice at level up? How simple is the feat system?

Past that it's preference but it's a lot I prefer 5e despite it has or because it has a simple feats system and more level up with no choice.

[Brimcon]

As someone who has played a large number of 3.5 and Pathfinder games, both in Video Game format and actual tabletop rules. I'm glad for the revision in 5e to make things more simple.

Characters have "Less" options to choose from, but nothing leads to a "Dead" pick, or a trap pick. Hell Classes have their own choices within their subclasses. Sure, right now BG3 has very few options and variations at the moment but every class gets a choice at level 1, level 2, or level 3. Level 4 is the same for everyone but its been like that in every edition, they just made it stronger.

[Dorok]

Fighter D&D 2.5e
1st +2 Attack of Opportunity, Fighting Style, Second Wind
2nd +2 Action Surge (1x), Combat Feat
3rd +2 Combat Feat
4th +2 Ability Score Increase, Combat Feat, Attribute increase
5th +3 Precision Strikes (+1)
6th +3 Combat Feat
7th +3 Bravery, Combat Feat
8th +3 Ability Score Increase, Combat Feat, Attribute increase
9th +4 Action Surge (2x)
10th +4 Combat Feat
Skills increase at each level up.

Choices at levels 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10 and I don't count the skills.

Go compare with 5e and pretend it's the same... Sigh. Sure it's less right for magic classes, but instead they have spells choices.

EDIT: There was a design problem in skills increase, for most builds it was automatic to have some logic so fake choices. But this could have been targeted by a bit more complexity as more points to allocate every 2 or 3 level up.

[Brimcon]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Dorok:

Fighter D&D 2.5e
1st +2 Attack of Opportunity, Fighting Style, Second Wind
2nd +2 Action Surge (1x), Combat Feat
3rd +2 Combat Feat
4th +2 Ability Score Increase, Combat Feat
5th +3 Precision Strikes (+1)
6th +3 Combat Feat
7th +3 Bravery, Combat Feat
8th +3 Ability Score Increase, Combat Feat
9th +4 Action Surge (2x)
10th +4 Combat Feat

Choices at levels 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10.

Go compare with 5e and pretend it's the same... Sigh. Sure it's less right for magic classes, but instead they have spells choices.

The difference for me is the subclasses completely change how a character will function. You don't get that kind of power with combat feats.

[Dorok]

Yes but it's automatic just a subclass choice.

I had some long arguing on that, choices and amount of builds. The debate here isn't about amount of valid builds, but about amount of choices at level up. And I don't try defend 3.5e and all its problems, just quote that 5e design is weird for level up and even if it's always been a weak point of D&D the 5e aggravated the problem.

[Brimcon]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Dorok:

Yes but it's automatic just a subclass choice.

I had some long arguing on that, choices and amount of builds. The debate here isn't about amount of valid builds, but about amount of choices at level up. And I don't try defend 3.5e and all its problems, just quote that 5e design is weird for level up and even if it's always been a weak point of D&D the 5e aggravated the problem.

True. Leveling up definitely feels weird and weak in general, in terms of what makes a character a character. Progression systems in general are not perfect, almost by design.

[Dorok]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Brimcon:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Dorok:

Yes but it's automatic just a subclass choice.

I had some long arguing on that, choices and amount of builds. The debate here isn't about amount of valid builds, but about amount of choices at level up. And I don't try defend 3.5e and all its problems, just quote that 5e design is weird for level up and even if it's always been a weak point of D&D the 5e aggravated the problem.

True. Leveling up definitely feels weird and weak in general, in terms of what makes a character a character. Progression systems in general are not perfect, almost by design.

The old feat system was a great way to target it, alas it was too complex for them and it became a flat choice and worse a choice opposed to attributes increase.

For computer games there are solutions, for table top, table and trees should be able to target in part the problem instead of some list with text requirements. And eventually design the feats so their presentation in trees of requirements is good.