Str vs Dex, what don't I understand?

[Locklave]

Mechanically it seems like dex is just better overall in combat.

Str (relies on armor for AC, medium/heavy)
Hit/damage/carry weight

Dex (relies on dex for AC and light/medium armor)
Hit/damage (finesse* weapons only) AC

Carry weight is honestly great, but dex builds mean lighter armor and weapons. Also access to the camp storage means inventory space isn't a big deal.

Now I know Str weapons do more damage but the difference vs AC from dex increase seems underwhelming.

Is there more to this then I know or am I forgetting to take something into account? Aside from lifting and moving items in the world.

*credit to Auburn2 on that correction

[Mosey]

STR is pretty inferior generally. The STR weapons don't do 'enough' more damage, and if you go pure great weapon the negatives to hit just aren't worth it generally.

That's 5th edition for you, though.

Only thing STR is good for is throwing things, that's really it.

[Don Kedik]

You have simply stumbled into the classic quandry of what build you prefer. Personally I agree a dex build is better overall. Others prefer strength. Strength based weapons do have hit% increase based on strength, so really there are 2 classes of melee weapons. It all comes down to play style. This is of course simplified because there is much more complexity tabletop than video game could ever incorporate.

[Zouls]

Welcome to 5e where dex is the god stat.

[Hobocop]

Strength also affects jump distance and success rate of the Shove maneuver.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Mosey:

STR is pretty inferior generally. The STR weapons don't do 'enough' more damage, and if you go pure great weapon the negatives to hit just aren't worth it generally.

That's 5th edition for you, though.

Only thing STR is good for is throwing things, that's really it.

Er what.. STR weapons DO DO more damage.. getting whacked for 10-13 per hit 2-3 times.. is bad at lv 4 versus getting hit for 4-6 from a dex weapon.

Dex is good for dodging.. etc or archers/casters.
Otherwise. Str is best. You can throw stuff further, jump further, hit harder and shove consistently.

[Locklave]

Originally posted by joshua.pauley:

You have simply stumbled into the classic quandry of what build you prefer. Personally I agree a dex build is better overall. Others prefer strength. Strength based weapons do have hit% increase based on strength, so really there are 2 classes of melee weapons. It all comes down to play style. This is of course simplified because there is much more complexity tabletop than video game could ever incorporate.

Is it just preference? It seems mechanically like dex is a requirement of many build and split stats are already brutal. Cleric is a great example of a class wanting like 4 different stats. If you build for Dex instead of Str you have more points for Wis/Chr and Con.

[asdf]

DEX does not give higher AC than STR though. With 20 DEX and studded leather you'd still have less AC than plate armor (not available in game yet, but it gives +8 AC). For classes that have access to medium/heavy armor it's still usually better to focus on STR, unless you intend to focus on ranged weapons of course.

The real tradeoff is usually between ranged weapons + initiative + DEX save/skills vs. melee damage and weapon versatility and slightly better AC + STR save/skills and jumping distance and the like.

Of course, for classes that can't use medium/heavy armor (or if their stats are being spread very thin for some reason and have only medium armor) DEX is clearly better, but in the context of classes with heavy armor I'd still usually prefer STR. .. Heck, right now one of my strongest characters is kind of amusingly a STR rogue (as a shield dwarf, it wouldn't really make any sense as any other race).

[talemore]

So you choosed to take a stat where you have no advantages, can't even use a Bow. Ffs
It be balanced if Rogues, stealthy used daggers based on strength, but this is what happen when you use broken rules

[Mosey]

Originally posted by Martin:

Er what.. STR weapons DO DO more damage.. getting whacked for 10-13 per hit 2-3 times.. is bad at lv 4 versus getting hit for 4-6 from a dex weapon.

Dex is good for dodging.. etc or archers/casters.
Otherwise. Str is best. You can throw stuff further, jump further, hit harder and shove consistently.

STR is not best in any circumstances in terms of fighting. Maybe shoving, or throwing, but not hitting things with your sword.

Great weapons do more damage (D12, 2D6) compared to light weapons (D6, D8) but since you can dual wield light weapons great weapons fall behind right off the bat. (2D6, 2D8)

Sure, you can take a -5 to hit with great weapons for +10 damage but the negatives you take make it a fools errand to hit anything that matters with it.

Ask anyone that's played a bit of 5th Edition D&D, and they'll tell you DEX is king.

Unless you want to be a pack mule, or throw people around.

DEX does the majority of damage saves, buffs armor class, buffs to hit rolls, buffs damage, and buffs a variety of the most useful skills in the game.

You simply can't compare the two without coming to the conclusion DEX is superior, at least generally.

[Locklave]

Originally posted by Mosey:

STR is not best in any circumstances in terms of fighting. Maybe shoving, or throwing, but not hitting things with your sword.

Great weapons do more damage (D12, 2D6) compared to light weapons (D6, D8) but since you can dual wield light weapons great weapons fall behind right off the bat. (2D6, 2D8)

Sure, you can take a -5 to hit with great weapons for +10 damage but the negatives you take make it a fools errand to hit anything that matters with it.

Ask anyone that's played a bit of 5th Edition D&D, and they'll tell you DEX is king.

Unless you want to be a pack mule, or throw people around.

Thank you for covering the dual wielding thing. It's nice to see things so directly. That's just another nail in the coffin for Str.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by Locklave:

Originally posted by Mosey:

STR is not best in any circumstances in terms of fighting. Maybe shoving, or throwing, but not hitting things with your sword.

Great weapons do more damage (D12, 2D6) compared to light weapons (D6, D8) but since you can dual wield light weapons great weapons fall behind right off the bat. (2D6, 2D8)

Sure, you can take a -5 to hit with great weapons for +10 damage but the negatives you take make it a fools errand to hit anything that matters with it.

Ask anyone that's played a bit of 5th Edition D&D, and they'll tell you DEX is king.

Unless you want to be a pack mule, or throw people around.

Thank you for covering the dual wielding thing. It's nice to see things so directly. That's just another nail in the coffin for Str.

Thing is, if you want to dual wield anything heavier than a D6 weapon, you need the Dual Wielder feat, which provides equal benefits to both Str and Dex.

[Mosey]

Originally posted by Locklave:

Thank you for covering the dual wielding thing. It's nice to see things so directly. That's just another nail in the coffin for Str.

Just to be fair, the dual wielding will need to make more to-hit rolls but that really doesn't matter. More attacks will just about always be better than fewer.

That's why Rogue is the best fighter in BG3 right now today. They can get three attacks every round, no one else can do that. Even if you throw in riposte's and opportunity attacks Rogue still comes out ahead.

I'm sure it'll be patched. No way Rogue's were intended to be the best fighters in BG3.

Thing is, if you want to dual wield anything heavier than a D6 weapon, you need the Dual Wielder feat, which provides equal benefits to both Str and Dex.

This is true, but 2D6 sword swords equal the damage output on a great sword so...

Saying that fighters can also dual wield is true, but all the other downsides of STR still apply. A DEX ranger with horde breaker outpaces a fighter in every way on live build.

[Destroying Angel]

Waiting for someone to rage out once they realize that when you tank scores, wisdom and the other dump stats are actually valuable enough that you miss most of the game without them.

[Locklave]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

Thing is, if you want to dual wield anything heavier than a D6 weapon, you need the Dual Wielder feat, which provides equal benefits to both Str and Dex.

But that's still a 2*1d6+dex vs 2d6+dex with 2 handed. The damage bonus from dex is applied to both weapons and not just 1 swing (assuming you took the fighting style). Leaving out the 2h -hit for +damage as screwing with hit rates makes the math more complex.

[Auburn2]

Originally posted by Locklave:

Mechanically it seems like dex is just better overall in combat.

Str (relies on armor for AC, medium/heavy)
Hit/damage/carry weight

Dex (relies on dex for AC and light/medium armor)
Hit/damage (versatile weapons only) AC

Carry weight is honestly great, but dex builds mean lighter armor and weapons. Also access to the camp storage means inventory space isn't a big deal.

Now I know Str weapons do more damage but the difference vs AC from dex increase seems underwhelming.

Is there more to this then I know or am I forgetting to take something into account? Aside from lifting and moving items in the world.

First off it is finesse weapons that use dexterity.

If we are talking about a melee character a strength build is going to be more versatile because they can get a strength bonus from any melee weapon. A dex build is good but going to be more limited in terms of weaponry. Additionally the most damaging weapons all use strength and the best melee feat - Great Weapon master can only be used with strength based weapons.

It is also fineesse weapons, not versatile weapons that allow dexterity bonus for melee.

One thing that does bother me though - in 5e thrown weapons can use strength and it does not appear that they do in 5e.