Ugly faces

[$50 Suits]

Disappointed by the lack of complex character customisation, and the pre-set faces for males aren't much to look at. Tried making a male human? It's just different shades of ugly.

I am suspecting some slight SJW shenanigans, or maybe we'll get more options when the game is fully released.

Refunding until then.

Yes, I'm that shallow.

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by Trap Queen 85:

Originally posted by Quillithe:

Ehhhh the Simarillion as published isn't really a good source for early elves. You'd want to use the early stuff in Book of Lost tales or the like.

It works just fine. Paired with The History of Middle Earth along with all of the obvious trappings in the various books about characters who are Elven does more than enough to flesh them out thoroughly.

My point was the published Simarallion is going to match fully with the later mythology. It also has Sauron, rings of power, and no king ruling over the lands the Shire is in - all stuff that's clearly retcons from the Hobbit.

Seriously, I reread it recently and the line about trolls "not having heard of the king" or whatever is interesting. And then Fellowship tries to excuse it with a whole "well, there was a king once and now that's slang to mean they're uncivilized".

The Hobbit is very clearly set in a different feeling setting than LotR.

[Trap Queen 85]

Originally posted by Quillithe:

Originally posted by Trap Queen 85:

It works just fine. Paired with The History of Middle Earth along with all of the obvious trappings in the various books about characters who are Elven does more than enough to flesh them out thoroughly.

My point was the published Simarallion is going to match fully with the later mythology. It also has Sauron, rings of power, and no king ruling over the lands the Shire is in - all stuff that's clearly retcons from the Hobbit.

Seriously, I reread it recently and the line about trolls "not having heard of the king" or whatever is interesting. And then Fellowship tries to excuse it with a whole "well, there was a king once and now that's slang to mean they're uncivilized".

The Hobbit is very clearly set in a different feeling setting than LotR.

Being that LoTR was intended to be one of a two volume set along with Simarallion, of course it is going to match with the mythology.

Tolkien states that Bilbo’s original story was the one Bilbo first wrote into what became The Red Book. Tolkien always said that The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings were translated from the Red Book, even Gandalf says that Bilbo lied in his first version of the tale [which was the version Tolkien published before writing LotR]

Tolkien had always been of a mind to rewrite The Hobbit in the same vein as he did LoTR. Which in the minds of many means that the later mythology was closest to his heart. A friend convinced him to leave it as is and it's not surprising considering the Hobbit is a much easier read and felt much more akin to a kids fairy tale.

[seandeven]

Originally posted by Trap Queen 85:

Originally posted by seandeven:

I know that they were originally inspired by LOTR elves. Heavily inspired is not a copy. Eladrin are more the LOTR elves if anyone wants to be pedantic.

#inpreviouseditions there were also female modifiers.
That said this is the ForgottonRealms were the humans of Netheril and the elves of Cormanthyr and have history. I think the most "hauntingly" beautiful elven city of realms lore is Evereska.

I'll let human bards argue music, not an aficionado just a casual. Appreciation of such a long lived race is not exactly lusting but there is always someone. Craftmanship, same can be said of dwarven craftmanship but you don't have folks throwing the panties for architecture and craftmanship, but again am sure there are some.

Now we are back to sex appeal. If what everone want some pixels to pass as an otherworldy honey trap I truly don't care but argue what you mean. You believe elves to have zero blemishes and as I've pointed out haunting beauty is not automatically mean beautiful. Elves have a charisma score and can be scarred like the rest of us.

Summing things up LOTR elves are immortal. These are DnD mortal elves

Because living a thousand years makes a difference? How does mortality change anything for a creature such as an Elf? They don't even age physically in the same way as time affects them differently.

I too am unsure about your need to have things have the same physical flaws as humans but sorry to say they don't according to the lore most closely associated with the origin of that race. Now you can create whatever you want but this is again, akin to the barbarian, something where for most people they want to play the thing they envisioned based on what they've read and seen in some of the most famous works.

Yet the early DnD elves were actually shorter than they are now if we go by original lore. I believe the Elves change as fast as human perception of them change. Not the other way it has been 3 generations born since The Hobbit.

But if we are retconning base height of elves was 55inches in 2nd edition. Older DnD art made elves chiseled and delicate not hauntingly ethereal. Mortality further defines DnD elves as separate from LoTR elves, yes it makes a difference. Games Workshop has Lawyers.

What elven lore are we talking the DnD Crown Wars between the elves or more LoTR, because DnD Elves are almost feral in some cases.

Screw it we go modern LoTR elf now everyone is 6ft perfect, gorgeous and radiates.

[Trap Queen 85]

Originally posted by seandeven:

Originally posted by Trap Queen 85:

Because living a thousand years makes a difference? How does mortality change anything for a creature such as an Elf? They don't even age physically in the same way as time affects them differently.

I too am unsure about your need to have things have the same physical flaws as humans but sorry to say they don't according to the lore most closely associated with the origin of that race. Now you can create whatever you want but this is again, akin to the barbarian, something where for most people they want to play the thing they envisioned based on what they've read and seen in some of the most famous works.

Yet the early DnD elves were actually shorter than they are now if we go by original lore. I believe the Elves change as fast as human perception of them change. Not the other way it has been 3 generations born since The Hobbit.

But if we are retconning base height of elves was 55inches in 2nd edition. Older DnD art made elves chiseled and delicate not hauntingly ethereal. Mortality further defines DnD elves as separate from LoTR elves, yes it makes a difference. Games Workshop has Lawyers.

What elven lore are we talking the DnD Crown Wars between the elves or more LoTR, because DnD Elves are almost feral in some cases.

Screw it we go modern LoTR elf now everyone is 6ft perfect, gorgeous and radiates.

'You believe' being the key words. And now you are on a tangent about height for some reason. 'Hauntingly Ethereal' has nothing to do with it unless you, you know want to go by the actual description of them in 5e.

At the end of the day all of the lore most closely associated with the origin of elves describes them as far exceeding the standard of beauty among human-like races.

[seandeven]

Originally posted by Trap Queen 85:

Originally posted by seandeven:

Yet the early DnD elves were actually shorter than they are now if we go by original lore. I believe the Elves change as fast as human perception of them change. Not the other way it has been 3 generations born since The Hobbit.

But if we are retconning base height of elves was 55inches in 2nd edition. Older DnD art made elves chiseled and delicate not hauntingly ethereal. Mortality further defines DnD elves as separate from LoTR elves, yes it makes a difference. Games Workshop has Lawyers.

What elven lore are we talking the DnD Crown Wars between the elves or more LoTR, because DnD Elves are almost feral in some cases.

Screw it we go modern LoTR elf now everyone is 6ft perfect, gorgeous and radiates.

'You believe' being the key words. And now you are on a tangent about height for some reason.

You can cut that part out and it still reads true.

2nd edition states they are shorter on page 21 of ADnD if anyone wants to look. Point is and the only point I am making the elves of the Forgotton Realms are not Lotr Elves.

These arent the elves of nordic poems. Nowhere in DnD reads are they exceedingly beautiful. Zero. All DnD elves have a scale of beauty on par WITH humans no matter how you parse words. In 2e they were delicate and chiseled and now they are haunting and ethereal.

[ploco]

Originally posted by Ēarendel:

Originally posted by 󠀡󠀡:

Well, because it's a rather random comment paired with "ugly faces" in BG3. That's like calling white bread racist because it's rather common.

More importantly, people see SJW stuff in pretty much everything these days. It's slowly starting to hurt and not the fun kind.

My spider sense is telling me this thread will be locked down sooner rather than later. Please do.

Maybe because its normalized and common? Why get triggered for calling a spade a spade? It doesn't need to be locked down if everyone keeps it unhostile and polite. What the OP meant is obvious, hes frustrated theres a lack of choice to make his type of character that isn't "diverse" and about the lack of more choice in general, which I'm certain most can agree on at least

Because it is not a spade...

[ploco]

Originally posted by seandeven:

Originally posted by Trap Queen 85:

Because living a thousand years makes a difference? How does mortality change anything for a creature such as an Elf? They don't even age physically in the same way as time affects them differently.

I too am unsure about your need to have things have the same physical flaws as humans but sorry to say they don't according to the lore most closely associated with the origin of that race. Now you can create whatever you want but this is again, akin to the barbarian, something where for most people they want to play the thing they envisioned based on what they've read and seen in some of the most famous works.

Yet the early DnD elves were actually shorter than they are now if we go by original lore. I believe the Elves change as fast as human perception of them change. Not the other way it has been 3 generations born since The Hobbit.

But if we are retconning base height of elves was 55inches in 2nd edition. Older DnD art made elves chiseled and delicate not hauntingly ethereal. Mortality further defines DnD elves as separate from LoTR elves, yes it makes a difference. Games Workshop has Lawyers.

What elven lore are we talking the DnD Crown Wars between the elves or more LoTR, because DnD Elves are almost feral in some cases.

Screw it we go modern LoTR elf now everyone is 6ft perfect, gorgeous and radiates.

Original lore 1st Edition Forgotten Realms box set:
ELMINSTER'S NOTES: The Elves of the
Forgotten Realms are of human height,
but much more slender. Their fingers
and hands are half-again as long as
men, and delicately tapered, and their
bones are light and surprisingly sturdy.
Elven faces are thinner and more
serene, and Elven ears, as ears in half a
hundred Known Worlds, are pointed.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Trap Queen 85:

More interesting facts are that Gygax claims as to not have been influenced by Tolkien when creating the Elf for Chainmail and later D&D. In fact his earliest Elves didn't even have souls and could not be resurrected.

If I'm not mistaken, elves weren't the only race who lacked a soul were they? I think orcs and other monsters also fell into that category at some point, thus giving players an excuse for being able to slaughter them without remorse.

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by Trap Queen 85:

Originally posted by Quillithe:

My point was the published Simarallion is going to match fully with the later mythology. It also has Sauron, rings of power, and no king ruling over the lands the Shire is in - all stuff that's clearly retcons from the Hobbit.

Seriously, I reread it recently and the line about trolls "not having heard of the king" or whatever is interesting. And then Fellowship tries to excuse it with a whole "well, there was a king once and now that's slang to mean they're uncivilized".

The Hobbit is very clearly set in a different feeling setting than LotR.

Being that LoTR was intended to be one of a two volume set along with Simarallion, of course it is going to match with the mythology.

Tolkien states that Bilbo’s original story was the one Bilbo first wrote into what became The Red Book. Tolkien always said that The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings were translated from the Red Book, even Gandalf says that Bilbo lied in his first version of the tale [which was the version Tolkien published before writing LotR]

Tolkien had always been of a mind to rewrite The Hobbit in the same vein as he did LoTR. Which in the minds of many means that the later mythology was closest to his heart. A friend convinced him to leave it as is and it's not surprising considering the Hobbit is a much easier read and felt much more akin to a kids fairy tale.

Oh yeah, a few little bits of the Hobbit were in fact rewritten of course.

Gollum just giving the ring up willingly because he lost the riddle game would really clash with LotR.

Anyway, I'd say the later mythology was clearly closer to his heart later on. Just that the elves as presented in the Hobbit are clearly a bit different which leads to some of the diversity in elven representation.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by seandeven:

Yet the early DnD elves were actually shorter than they are now if we go by original lore. I believe the Elves change as fast as human perception of them change. Not the other way it has been 3 generations born since The Hobbit.

The belief that elves mature slower than humans is a misconception. Elves reach physical maturity at the same rate as humans do (roughly around 20 years or so), but they are not considered to be adults within their culture until after their first century. Elves measure their age based on what kind of visions they have during Trance.

----------------

Also, I can provide imperical evidence that elves in D&D were originally immortal. Because it is outright stated as such in none other than Baldur's Gate 2 by the elven queen after the final battle with Irenicus.

BG 1 and 2 take place within 2nd edition of D&D, a far older system that has different world building than the 5th edition that BG3 is taking place in.

[Trap Queen 85]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Trap Queen 85:

More interesting facts are that Gygax claims as to not have been influenced by Tolkien when creating the Elf for Chainmail and later D&D. In fact his earliest Elves didn't even have souls and could not be resurrected.

If I'm not mistaken, elves weren't the only race who lacked a soul were they? I think orcs and other monsters also fell into that category at some point, thus giving players an excuse for being able to slaughter them without remorse.

You are correct. Gygax, generally speaking and particularly in his earlier works, wasn't a fan of non-human races.

[sevensided]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

If I'm not mistaken, elves weren't the only race who lacked a soul were they? I think orcs and other monsters also fell into that category at some point, thus giving players an excuse for being able to slaughter them without remorse.

IIRC, they had spirits, instead of souls, and essentially reincarnated, instead of going to an afterlife.
Or am I mitzing that up in my memory with something else....

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by sevensided:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

If I'm not mistaken, elves weren't the only race who lacked a soul were they? I think orcs and other monsters also fell into that category at some point, thus giving players an excuse for being able to slaughter them without remorse.

IIRC, they had spirits, instead of souls, and essentially reincarnated, instead of going to an afterlife.
Or am I mitzing that up in my memory with something else....

That distinction would make a lot of sense with the LotR connection where elves go to the Valar and reincarnate and humans go to some mysterious afterlife maybe with Illuvatar or something.

Or maybe you're just thinking of LotR.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by sevensided:

IIRC, they had spirits, instead of souls, and essentially reincarnated, instead of going to an afterlife.
Or am I mitzing that up in my memory with something else....

"For his madness, we stripped Joneleth of his elven immortality and exiled him... only to create Irenicus instead." - Queen Ellesime

She also mentions at some point in the game that Irenicus and Bodhi were banished from the mystical paradise that all elves are entitled to. Which directly correlates to Tolkien's elves who had the ability to literally sail to heaven any time they wanted to.

In fact, the elves can actually still do this in D&D, with the island called 'Evermeet.' It is an actual piece of elvish heaven that was summoned to the material plane with the aid of High Magic, and it was create so that elves could escape from the outside world and live out their days in peace with their own kind.

[Trap Queen 85]

Originally posted by Quillithe:

Originally posted by sevensided:

IIRC, they had spirits, instead of souls, and essentially reincarnated, instead of going to an afterlife.
Or am I mitzing that up in my memory with something else....

That distinction would make a lot of sense with the LotR connection where elves go to the Valar and reincarnate and humans go to some mysterious afterlife maybe with Illuvatar or something.

Or maybe you're just thinking of LotR.

No they are thinking of the earliest periods of D&D.

Deities and Demigods AD&D:

D&D assumes that the anima, that force which gives life and distinct existence to thinking beings, is one of two sorts: soul / or spirit. Humans, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and half-elves (those beings which can have a raise dead or resurrection spell cast upon them) all have souls; all other beings that worship deities have spirits. This latter group includes (but is not limited to) elves, orcs, half-orcs, and the other creatures specifically mentioned in the NONHUMANS' DEITIES section of this work