Fire-hardened spears should have *less* durability, not more.

[Glamorpuss]

The most recent blog[projectzomboid.com] says fire-hardened spears would have slightly increased damage, and increased durabity. However, this scientific paper[royalsocietypublishing.org] measures the strength, etc and finds that they're actually weaker, not stronger. So IMO in Zomboid, fire-hardened spears should have more damage, but *less* durability compared to a normal spear. (I actually brought this up in another thread a few years ago, but the button to link to threads in Steam is always hard to find. :| )

[planetalgol]

Former Physical Anthropology student here.

I wouldn't ever take a singular paper as a statement of fact; there's a lot of disagreements in the field, such as another paper that presents a refutation of the paper you posted https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8086952/

It also doesn't sound like the people in the original study experimented with their spears upon animal carcasses, which I personally would like to see in addition to the mechanical testing in laboratory conditions.

Or as other people have put it, although these are opinions and not scientific statements of fact:

"Fire hardening is found all over the world in native communities and has been used for thousands upon thousands of years by man. This is all the evidence you need for it's usefulness, "

"I mean, it worked for Odysseus."

"Worth noting that failure to achieve significant hardening is not at all the same as proving it is not possible."

Anyways, this a game, and not a scientific simulation; "the perfect is the enemy of the good" and it's a minor, fun, immersive mechanic for wilderness play.

[Glamorpuss]

Thanks for the scientific paper; I hadn't found that. Your other points however, detract from your statement, IMO. Just because something is *old* doesn't mean it's correct. Like, Odysseus believed in all kinds of things which today are known to be fantasy...and he himself was mythological. I also reject that I'm asking for anything like a perfect simulation. I wasn't arguing over decimal places - the change in toughness was (without the second paper) pointed in the completely opposite direction. If you're going to hand-wave scientific papers anyway, why not ask if there should be a meaningful *trade-off* when firing a spear, instead of just receiving all bonuses.

[planetalgol]

I wouldn't expect any part of the crafting system to be to peer-reviewed scientific paper standards; ultimately this is a game being made, and not an academic paper or thesis defense, and the academic or scientific standards applicable to those are not applicable to making a game.

In a practical sense, one can make a crafting rework in a timely fashion, or one can read all of the relevant scientific papers and attempt at some solution that will satisfy everyone as some sort of "agreeable middle ground of the sum of their conclusions"? or something?

But one cannot do both, and it's entirely possible that the scientifically accurate solution might also not make for compelling gameplay. Ultimately this is entertainment, and not science, and many things in the crafting rework will likely displease individuals.

One could even make the argument that it was irresponsible of me to spend time reading two academic papers regarding the matter instead of spending the time advancing other aspects of the crafting rework.

In a practical sense, all of the weapon statistics are really just placeholders until the guts and bolts of the beta playtesting begins as well. As things stand now, with the spear balance stuff and how wooden spears aren't very durable to begin with by design (make a proper spear with a metal head if you need a durable spear), there really isn't any "place" for a mechanic where fire hardening a spear makes it less durable from the already dismal basic wooden spear durability.

Regardless, over the holidays I took advantage of my landlord/neighbours fire pit and a assortment of sticks, and after experimentation I am personally satisfied with the fire hardened spear mechanics as they stand.