Did they completely break guns?

[The Toblin]

Even if I'm perfectly healthy, standing still and given ample time to aim, my character can't hit the broadside of a barn at Aim 3 (Police start). Like, I know aiming was bad in B41, but this is next level useless. Using a gun right now is back to the B40 days of being straight up suicide.

I can see why they gave us a gun to start, because this needs some testing. This is absolutely bonkers bad. In B41, you could start a character with a bit of aiming (3-4) and still do decently in the early game if you found a gun and some ammo. If you found a shotgun, you were at the top of the world.

Now? Even using shotguns is hilariously bad. With a crowd of zombies in front of me, I'll be lucky if I hit ONE with 5+ seconds of aiming. And don't even get me started on moodles, man. If you have even a single moodle (panic being the worst), you can't hit anything, ever.


So, my fellow Zomboids, how are you using guns? What am I missing? Because clearly I am missing something, because there's no way this is the intended experience, right?


I'm not even going to comment on the new aiming reticule...system thing, because I expect that to be axed instantly. I have rarely seen a worse UI implementation. It is completely useless and doesn't even line up with where you're aiming. Try it! Aim at a zombie and look at where the gun is pointed. It's about 30 degrees to the right of the zombie. WTF?

[LeoCean]

I only tested it with a shotgun and a pistol, while the pistol sucked with the new aiming, it still worked. There's a mod to use b41 aiming but it gives errors when killing something.

[The Toblin]

Originally posted by ✪LeoCean:

I only tested it with a shotgun and a pistol, while the pistol sucked with the new aiming, it still worked. There's a mod to use b41 aiming but it gives errors when killing something.

I'm trying to avoid mods because if the devs want feedback on the unstable build, I don't want my experience muddled by mods.

[[Censored]]

its unstable dude.... lotta things need fixing... how do you see the word unstable and figure intended experience

[The Toblin]

Originally posted by Censored:

its unstable dude.... lotta things need fixing... how do you see the word unstable and figure intended experience

I'm not sure I can facepalm hard enough.

I am ASKING the community if I'm missing something with guns, because I cannot believe that the current system is the intended situation for guns to be in.

Ergo, I am asking to see if other people have a different experience or method, because if not, it's time to bring feedback to the devs.

If I had missed something, I'd look like an idiot saying "guns don't work" when there was an easy fix or method around it.

Please, for the love of god, use your brain before posting. The point of the unstable build is to test, evaulate and give feedback. I can't give feedback if I'm not informed.

[Jamsalad]

Originally posted by Censored:

its unstable dude.... lotta things need fixing... how do you see the word unstable and figure intended experience

yeah , dude! it only took them 5 years for this update.

you really expect a system that was previously working to still be working after only 5 years of dev time?

[DragonKing]

Originally posted by Censored:

its unstable dude.... lotta things need fixing... how do you see the word unstable and figure intended experience

Are you implying that the new things they implemented were not intended? Cause that is exactly what this comment reads like.

Sure, you probably mean that there is the chance that what is presented in this unstable version is subject to change, but it far from means that anything present is unintended.

I think OP has a valid point, aiming guns felt nerfed in B41, and they don't feel compelling to use early game in B42 either. They even give us a handgun and 5 full mags to get started, and I still don't want to use it after my own experience.

I think it is fair to assume, that after putting effort into revamping the aiming system, and literally presenting this ingame as something they want tested, how could what they implement not be the "intended experience?" - What is the point in testing an unintended experience? Come on now.

[Animalman]

well it shows us, this is how hard it is without guns, how hard should it be with guns?
should it be as hard as it is now? how much easier should it be.
Could be a while to make a decision on that given the new world and survival experiences it can offer when popular spots are currently off limits

[Mahpell]

Originally posted by Censored:

its unstable dude.... lotta things need fixing... how do you see the word unstable and figure intended experience

Dude that's the point. Unstable public beta is made for getting feedback from broader audience. Both for finding bugs and rating overall experience with new features. The fact that you shame someone for it while not giving any useful input is beyond ironic.

[Ediros]

To add my 2€, aiming sucks right now. I am strugglling to hit broad side of a barn. In B41 guns are solid, especially on level 5+ of aiming. You can definitely kill zombies faster and they aren't as loud as you might think, especially the m9 and m36 revolver.

B42? The aiming system just sucks. I was hoping we would be able to just aim at what zombie we want killed, which we be highlighted as it currently is in b41. However, we have got this weird reticle that takes forever to aim and lose Accuracy instantly + the guns jam waaaaay too often

[✚ Bad0pel]

I just straight up avoid using any firearm, the aiming is hard and its not worth the amount of attention it brings down upon you.

[jinx20001]

i think the aiming problems are being grossly exaggerated myself... i don't hit all my shots but i just do not expect to, the game trends towards realism and detail, if you had a zombie in front of you and you were bricking yourself you would hit 2 out of 15 shots aswell trust me.

They went over the shooting in thursdoids over the last year and told us exactly what to expect and even told us they expect many players to just hate it. Back in february/march sometime they went over whats changed, recoil is a thing now, hit chances are a thing which means you also have a chance to miss as you would in reality no matter how close you were besides literal point blank. Strength helps with recoil, dextrous and all thumbs impact shouldering a weapon, eagle eyed and shortsighted effect sighting range. it takes time to stabilise the weapons now after every shot, so experiment with slower rates of fire and see if you hit more targets.

I think what has happened is they have factored in sooo many variables when it comes to shooting now that its difficult for players to understand why they are missing shots they feel they should be hitting... even with wider spread ammo as there would be for shotguns.

I hit enough shots to not be too worried about it honestly, i just accept many shots will be missed unless you are an expert marksman and even an expert marksman in the game will miss shots if you are careless with your fire rate and don't consider things like recoil. The bigger issue is weapon jamming which is extremely common but again, even a perfectly maintained firearm can jam in reality.

The problem the devs have with balancing this stuff is making it somewhat realistic but still fun because its a game, but me personally, i don't want them to go gung ho on gunplay just yet, i think we should work on actually getting better at this aspect of the game.

[DragonKing]

Point blank range should be like close to 99% chance of hitting. The game already affects you with panic and such, which makes sense why it would be harder to hit at a distance, especially for an untrained "sensitive" person.

But at the same time, if I were in this situation, I would still try to make my bullets counts, by making them get closer. It is not like the "target" is moving from side-to-side, it is coming straight at you. And if there is nothing occluding your aim, you should be focused enough on the moment to actually do headshots without issue.

Game already has a bunch of additional mechanics to affect your shooting ability, such as panic, stress, injuries, gun jamming etc. - Do we really need aiming to be such a roll of the dice that we can't predict a shot that has no reason to miss? Give players a bit of credit for their skill and ability to remain patient in a stressful situation. I mean, if you have to deal with a lot of zombies, it is not just your character that has to deal with stress and panic xD

I know this game wants to be a story generator, just like Rimworld does, but I don't see why arbitrary randomness improves the experience in this situation. I mean, does anyone really get excited or happy about a game treating you unfairly? Or would you rather expect someone to get excited and happy about successfully managing to deal with a hairy situation?

No one is going to brag about missing every single shot from a full 9mm mag, though I guess that should be some kind of achievement in its own right.

[The Toblin]

The problem is that the aiming system is completely without feedback now. The old outline had clear coloration to tell you if you had a chance to hit or not. This reticule is more of a vague suggestion that you might hit somewhere within this area, but that's not what it represents.

The reticule itself is also *TINY* and my colorblind ass can't even tell if it's changing color or not.

After having tested extensively, my experience is that you will hit 2-5 bullets out of a full mag (15) with Aiming 4, and that is WITH standing still and trying to shoot at a decent range (AKA not melee). It still takes 3-4 bullets to kill a zombie, unless you're lucky.

And that is with the trade-off that bullets are very rare and guns are LOUD.

So far, 100% of my gun based characters have died in the first day, while my melee-focused ones lived for weeks. Guns are just NOT worth it right now. This is like pre-B41 days where using a gun was an instant death sentence. We're back to that.

If the system had *much*, and I mean MUCH better visual feedback than it does now, then maybe at least people would stop trying to use guns. But it's just completely impossible to learn this system when it's so obtuse. I shouldn't have to read a wiki or peruse a forum to figure out what the heck it means.

I assumed it means what blooming reticules usually mean, but that doesn't seem to be the case. In addition, it seems to be very off-center. If I put the aiming dot on top of a zombie's head, I seem to consistently aim to the right of the zombie, visually, and that makes no sense to me.

Furthermore, I can't tell if I'm shooting literally AT the dot, or if it's like B41 where I'm aiming in the direction of the dot. AKA I don't know if the game is testing ME (the dot is where your bullet will hit) or if its testing my character (you tell the character where to shoot and their skill is determined whether they'll hit the enemy you aim at or not).

It's so extremely non-communicative. Some people claim it "values player skills now" because you actually have to aim, but the system itself tells me that it's the CHARACTER's skill that matters.

I'm just frustrated to no end with this update, I'll be honest. I know it's unstable and all, but none of the previous releases were this freaking...frustrating. Fighting zombies at all is an absolute slog, and you can down a handful before you need to spend a few hours catching your breath, even has a fully fit character, and well, you've heard my opinion on the new aiming system.

I dunno, I think I'll just give this one a pass for a weeks. Give them some time to iron things out, because if this is where Zomboid will be going forward, I think me and Zomboid are done with each other.

It was hard and laborous before, but it was never frustrating and that is what it is right now.

[The Toblin]

Originally posted by Ediros:

the guns jam waaaaay too often

Yeah, it's like none of the guns have been maintained in the last 20 years. With a real firearm you very rarely get any malfunctions if the gun's maintained, but here I get one almost every single mag. And that's with a 100% condition gun. WTF?

[tilarium]

Break? No
Change how they and aiming works? Yes

The problem, I think, mostly lies in people not wanting to take the time to relearn how to use them and falling back into their old ways. I’m guilty of this as well. Where as, one of my friends that never played before B42 has taken to firearms rather quickly.