Why are you still trying to build this game in Java?

[Dirty Wizard]

Why? I'm not trying to be a ♥♥♥♥ but for a game of this scope and ambition surely there are better languages to build an open world zombie survival game of this complexity in. There are free engines like Unity that could easily accommodate a game of this scope and also support basic features like lighting, water effects, and animated environments.

I can't help thinking that most of the time being spent on this game is spent trying to get around the massive almost insurmountable constraints of building an engine in Java.

[Shurenai]

Because game development isn't magic, And having spent 5 years of development time on one engine doesn't magically mean they can port all that work instantaneously to some other engine. It would be years more just to get a copy of the game on the new engine up to the current games standards; whereas by continuing on the engine they're on, they can make new forward progress instead of repeating the same progress. Not to mention they already have a great deal of familiarity with the current engine and zero familiarity with whatever new engine could conceivably be chosen, or a bunch of other things.

'Just do it on a new engine already!' is one of the most ill-conceived notions that people with very little understanding of game development like to voice, "because Engine X is better than Engine Y and if you had just switched over the game would already be done!"...But that belief is horrifyingly wrong, as most developers who attempt to switch to a new engine mid development discover.

You build a house on a foundation. If you want to rip out the foundation, you by the laws of known physics must rip down the house itself too. You then have to re-build that house on the new foundation- But the placement of key structural supports is different, the location of wall anchor points in the foundation are different, the load bearing quality of the new foundation is different so you get halfway through putting up a wall and it collapses. . .


..Fundamentally, that is in effect what happens when you go from engine A to engine B. You have to redo everything from scratch, in an entirely new environment you know nothing about. Yeah, you might have a bunch of the planning out of the way now since you're just trying to get back to where you were- But getting back to where you were still takes time. And a lot of it.

[_TheBunnymaster_]

@DW
I don't think the team originally had as many options available either due to money or staffing constraints. I will say that slapping together another game in Unity is about the last thing I'd use as criteria for a good game. Would constructing an engine in C++ have been a better idea, based on the direction java has gone? Quite possibly, especially if high-end physics are to be added. I'm not clairvoyant though, and have no idea what the original makeup of TIS was and don't know who was available with what skillsets. I'll add that a complete redesign orphaned off from the original engine was what almost killed Day-Z standalone, mostly because the fanbase was used to awesome and not exactly tuned for the change of ground-up engine building.
Are you offering your services, or are you just puttin' one across the bow?

[Dirty Wizard]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Because game development isn't magic, And having spent 5 years of development time on one engine doesn't magically mean they can port all that work instantaneously to some other engine. It would be years more just to get a copy of the game on the new engine up to the current games standards

Absolutely true, at least a couple of years, maybe more. I am in no way implying that moving to another engine would be quick or easy.

However then they'd be working with a much easier and infinitely more powerful engine that has the capabilities to do whatever they want with the game, rather than messing around with a Java based engine that can't even support basic features like lighting, particle effects, or water animation. With something like Unity the game could support skyscraper sized buildings, realistic weather effects, atmospheric dynamic lighting, fire, explosions, throwing weapons, animated environment damage, and so much more.

Let's face it, realistically this game will take far longer than another 2 years to finish. At this rate of development it will be another 5 or 6 years at least. It's been 9 years since the first playable build was released and it's still in a barebones alpha state. At some point they are going to have to accept that they're spending more time messing around with the extreme limitations of Java than actually building the game into what they dreamed of.

I love this game and what it could have been. But every time I play it, I feel sad. The devs have such a great idea that is being held back by such weird and restrictive choices.

[Shurenai]

They would be working with a different engine- It's capabilities are questionable. Unity is not all that great.

Originally posted by Dirty Wizard:

With something like X engine the game could support skyscraper sized buildings, realistic weather effects, atmospheric dynamic lighting, fire, explosions, throwing weapons, animated environment damage, and so much more."

+time, +time, +time, +time, +time, +time, +time, +time, +time. Plus it would require an expanded team, as a more expansive engine requires an equally more capable and varied team to take advantage of, which in turn requires more coordination from the top to the bottom so that things get done with any efficiency.

However long the game will take to finish, you're asking them to take 5+ more years in addition to the time currently remaining until release. It would not in any way make things faster, only significantly slower......And they'd get halfway through it, and start getting bombarded with "This new engine is out, since you're still not done, just change!" . And that's not accounting for the learning period as they try to figure out the new system that is dramatically different from the one they're used to.

Could it make a better, prettier game? Sure. It could. But 'Could' is the operative word here. It could also lead to the devs getting burned out from having to re-make the same game all over again after dumping literal years of their blood sweat and tears down the drain, leaving us with two incomplete games that would never be finished due to a development team that just gave up. It could also be way worse in the new engine, Some things definitely would not map 1:1 between two dramatically different engines like that; And there would be a whole host of new bugs and issues to encounter, learn, and ultimately work around.


The grass isn't greener on the other side- It's green when you care for it.

Edit: In the end, It would be better for them to finish making this game in the current engine, then look to a Project Zomboid 2 in a 'better engine', rather than to ruin what they have for no good reason.

[Dirty Wizard]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

In the end, It would be better for them to finish making this game in the current engine, then look to a Project Zomboid 2 in a 'better engine', rather than to ruin what they have for no good reason.

This is probably the most feasible outcome but TBH I think it would mean dropping a lot of the features they wanted to implement such as NPC's and a branching dynamic story. I'm basing this on the rate of development we've seen over the last few years - at this rate with all the roadmapped features the game won't be finished for another 5 years at least.

It really seems like they're spending a lot of time wrestling with the limitations of Java and having to compromise a lot on their vision because of this.

Realistically what should happen is they should polish what they currently have into a finished state, then start working with an engine that's designed specifically for indie games.

Again, I'm not trying to be a ♥♥♥♥, but this seems like such a dead end and I'd hate to think they're wasting their considerable talents on it when they could be making something 10 times better. It's like watching someone make ugly sculptures out of recycled plastic when you know they have the talent to be creating beautiful carvings out of fine quality wood.

[Father Crow]

maybe if it ever happens, P.Z 2.0 or new title could be picked up by another publisher with a graphics overhaul if it ever happens but better than no P.Z at all in this case

[PolishRenegade]

Feel the pain Enigma... But it's as honest as it can be. Way too late in the game to say "Told you so" when the community was asking the same question when the game was still young. What was done, is done I guess.

That said, I am curious as to why you said that PZ2 is unlikely to happen. Sounds like there has been a decision to run PZ1 until money runs dry instead of switching away from the tech-pains and roadmaping sustainability for the future.

[Radiosity]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

They would be working with a different engine- It's capabilities are questionable. Unity is not all that great.

Originally posted by Dirty Wizard:

With something like X engine the game could support skyscraper sized buildings, realistic weather effects, atmospheric dynamic lighting, fire, explosions, throwing weapons, animated environment damage, and so much more."

Edit: In the end, It would be better for them to finish making this game in the current engine, then look to a Project Zomboid 2 in a 'better engine', rather than to ruin what they have for no good reason.

Which is exactly what Kenshi 2 is all about. There's no fixing up the original Ogre engine, and they have access to Unreal for a reasonable price now, hence K2 is being developed. Chris (main dev) has made it clear that porting Kenshi 1 to Unreal could feasibly take 5 years.

That's what OP is effectively asking for here. Pause all development for half a decade so they can port to a new engine for questionable gains.

[Death]

Originally posted by Radiosity:

Originally posted by Shurenai:

They would be working with a different engine- It's capabilities are questionable. Unity is not all that great.



Edit: In the end, It would be better for them to finish making this game in the current engine, then look to a Project Zomboid 2 in a 'better engine', rather than to ruin what they have for no good reason.

Which is exactly what Kenshi 2 is all about. There's no fixing up the original Ogre engine, and they have access to Unreal for a reasonable price now, hence K2 is being developed. Chris (main dev) has made it clear that porting Kenshi 1 to Unreal could feasibly take 5 years.

That's what OP is effectively asking for here. Pause all development for half a decade so they can port to a new engine for questionable gains.

I think it's clear what the OP is asking and the point is that it's way too late to do that now. Period. We got what we got, because there weren't affordable options when they started. Not even Unity was on the table then. So from here there's only one option. Keep going with they have and finish the game. If at some point down the line they do a PZ2, then great. But I would think it'll be more likely that someone else may do something very similar to PZ in a different engine at some point. It just is what it is.

Edit: I also forgot to mention that if they halted all development for years to swap engines, it would probably hurt their reputation. I mean if you've been around for a bit, then you've probably seen the people complaining about NPCs not being in yet and other more trivial things. There are plenty of people in the community that would lose their ♥♥♥♥ and would basically burn the house down. So it's just better to get it out the door with what they have than to do an engine swap.

[Lucifer]

Why the Java hate? Minecraft is in Java... Unity might have better graphic support over Java but I believe it's the gameplay and not the graphics that truly matter and PZ (and Minecraft) both really shine there.

[Pherdnut]

Speaking as a web developer with career-universal negative experiences with java-based web apps, I realized at one point that I don't hate Java. I hate 95% of Java devs. Obviously the PZ team is no joke. Applets sucked butt though.

I think Java's biggest problem is that it has an unfortunately high number of devs that don't ever want to have to learn any other language. Their conservatism has stunted the growth of the language and their understanding of it. It's the disadvantage of a popular-in-academia language. Too many developers suffering the delusion that they don't have to learn anything new after college which is basically slow-career-suicide.

[Death]

Originally posted by Lucifer:

Why the Java hate? Minecraft is in Java... Unity might have better graphic support over Java but I believe it's the gameplay and not the graphics that truly matter and PZ (and Minecraft) both really shine there.

Originally posted by Pherdnut:

Speaking as a web developer with career-universal negative experiences with java-based web apps, I realized at one point that I don't hate Java. I hate 95% of Java devs. Obviously the PZ team is no joke. Applets sucked butt though.

I think Java's biggest problem is that it has an unfortunately high number of devs that don't ever want to have to learn any other language. Their conservatism has stunted the growth of the language and their understanding of it. It's the disadvantage of a popular-in-academia language. Too many developers suffering the delusion that they don't have to learn anything new after college which is basically slow-career-suicide.

Excellent points.

[DarkFaceGlow]

Imagine they went to a different engine. All the “I want NPCs NOW”babies would be throwing tantrums left, right & center..

[XxBarakaxX]

Originally posted by DarkFaceGlow:

Imagine they went to a different engine. All the “I want NPCs NOW”babies would be throwing tantrums left, right & center..

Whats the problem? NPC´s are still very far away. Maybe we never get them. (the clever version)
What I hope for the near future is, that we become a new stable VErsion. The last stable version is from 2018, right?

[Foolish Bastion]

Following for interest.