Guns Are Broken AF

[ScoXander]

I've played Zomboid for over 200 hours and I've never used guns. Yesterday one of my best runs ended because I tried to get some Gun Experience.

Why is it that anything other than a shotgun is completely freaking useless. I've never fired a gun in real life, but this game can't convince it impossible for a rookie to headshot a slow moving not dodging zombie that is right in front of the barrel of a rifle.

Are the devs planning on fixing guns in Build 42, I haven't heard anything about that so I don't think so. My guess is that the coding for guns was modeled after Diablo 2's Attack Rating system because it is the same amount of broken.

I had 20 bullets and there was only 1 zombie and I died.

[Valen Logan]

Originally posted by DrLamp:

Originally posted by ★Rainmaker★:

I've seen a video where three people have terrible luck with their firearms and two of them were trained on how to use them. One guy mag dumps into thin air. Another guy accidentally ejects his magazine when he takes aim. The perp manages to get his rifle jammed.

But yeah, Aiming 0 characters should definitely hit moving targets with no issues.
You know, just like Long Blunt 0 characters should definitely oneshot zombies with planks. Because that's the exact same argument.

Stories like this is why, in one of the previous states I lived in, I thought very seriously about becoming a state certified firearms safety/shooting instructor. I didn't do it simply because I didn't have the time. The impetus to this was when I trained a couple of military personnel with handguns. To be fair, almost all of their training is centered around rifles which doesn't directly translate, but one of them couldn't hit anything and the other one nearly blew her face off the first day of training.

These were military people...like, wth?

Handguns in the military are a different beast. I am not saying the guns are all that different, but that like you said the basic firearms training is with rifles. I did five years in the Marines and never received a single minutes worth of pistol training. Certified a rifle expert with the M16 but you put an M9 in my hand and I will be lucky to even get the safety turned off.
The reason for all this is that handgun training is elective or seen as "follow on"
training. I was just too busy to enroll in the course. In my experience the guys with the pistol qual badge were E-5 or higher. My guess is it looks better on your FITREP when you are up for staff selection.
Additional note, my job didn't require me to be on the frontlines fighting like the 03 MOS are, so my experience is not reflective of all the training regimes out there.

[DrLamp]

Originally posted by Valen Logan:

Originally posted by DrLamp:

Stories like this is why, in one of the previous states I lived in, I thought very seriously about becoming a state certified firearms safety/shooting instructor. I didn't do it simply because I didn't have the time. The impetus to this was when I trained a couple of military personnel with handguns. To be fair, almost all of their training is centered around rifles which doesn't directly translate, but one of them couldn't hit anything and the other one nearly blew her face off the first day of training.

These were military people...like, wth?

Handguns in the military are a different beast. I am not saying the guns are all that different, but that like you said the basic firearms training is with rifles. I did five years in the Marines and never received a single minutes worth of pistol training. Certified a rifle expert with the M16 but you put an M9 in my hand and I will be lucky to even get the safety turned off.
The reason for all this is that handgun training is elective or seen as "follow on"
training. I was just too busy to enroll in the course. In my experience the guys with the pistol qual badge were E-5 or higher. My guess is it looks better on your FITREP when you are up for staff selection.
Additional note, my job didn't require me to be on the frontlines fighting like the 03 MOS are, so my experience is not reflective of all the training regimes out there.

When you say they're a different beast I'm not sure of what you mean. The handguns themselves are the same as you can get as a civilian. For example, an M9 is a Beretta 92FS. Typically ones manufactured for military use are intentionally higher tolerance (only slightly) so the parts can more easily be interchanged at the expensive of accuracy. This is common for most (not all) of the rifles as well.

You are absolutely correct though about the training, most enlisted men and women will never receive handgun training from the military. As such they will likely never be issued a sidearm. I think it's a chicken/egg thing. Personally I think if you are given a rifle, you should get a sidearm as well, preferably something with stopping power like a 1911 or S&W 40, but even an M9 is better than nothing.

That is WHY I was training some military people though, because they just didn't know how to use them and they WERE smart enough to know that they didn't know. When I was done with them they were pretty dangerous out to about 30 feet (10 meters-ish). I call that good enough, most handgun engagements will be within that range.

[Valen Logan]

I didn't word that well, my bad. By "different beast" I mean the focus of the basic firearm training is always your service rifle. It's built into the training pipeline. Pistols are something you have to go out and enroll in or have a reason to be trained in.
I agree with you that the M9 is kinda weak on a modern battlefield with the proliferation of body armors. From what I saw second hand, the M9s we had were pretty old so maybe there will be future plans to phase them out. I had a LT who actually fixed his in the field with a spring from an ink pen, he seemed quite proud of this accomplishment.

[DrLamp]

Originally posted by Valen Logan:

I didn't word that well, my bad. By "different beast" I mean the focus of the basic firearm training is always your service rifle. It's built into the training pipeline. Pistols are something you have to go out and enroll in or have a reason to be trained in.
I agree with you that the M9 is kinda weak on a modern battlefield with the proliferation of body armors. From what I saw second hand, the M9s we had were pretty old so maybe there will be future plans to phase them out. I had a LT who actually fixed his in the field with a spring from an ink pen, he seemed quite proud of this accomplishment.

He should be proud, and then mildy (no paperwork of course) be reprimanded for altering a service weapon :)

The M9 is already being/has been phased out, they're going with a 40 caliber Sig I believe. Wouldn't have been my choice. I feel that the handgrip/magwell is a little too fat and would make it uncomfortable to hold for many people. They wanted that doublestack mag for higher capacity which is understandable. The S&W isn't as bad in that regard hence my recommendation, it's also an American company with makes supply lines simpler. The 1911
is VERY reliable (it's like the AK of pistols in that regard), uses a single stack mag so people with small hands have no issues holding it, but you get only 7-8 shots depending on the manufacturer, so that can be a problem. The M9 is a double stack mag, but is still easy to grip and has high capacity, but suffers from lower overall power. This could be overcome with AP ammo, but that stuff tends to be expensive much harder to source (not many companies make it), would lead to overpenetration and even possible legal issues.

Overpenetration is a problem on a battlefield. The objective is to neutralize the target by killing them, not wounding them. This is why, to my understanding hollowpoints are forbidden with VERY VERY few exceptions.

[Valen Logan]

I was exclusively issued AP ammo, scuttlebutt was that it was all old SOPs from the Cold War era. AP to get through Russian/Russian-armed adversaries body armor. Even in bayonet training you try to go for the throat where the armor will be absent or not as robust. Honestly though, who knows? Modern military's are bureaucratic machines first and warfighters second.
In an effort to bring this back on the rails; anyone out there who has an interest in firearms should definitely grab up the Brita Weapons mod and the Arsenal Warfighter mod. Feel the battle cadence yourself with using the 1911's smaller mag compared to a Glock 17's higher capacity. Or get wild and bust out a Zip Gun and try not to blow off a finger while charging it back.

[DrLamp]

Brita's is a really good mod. IMO it adds a little too much ammo to the world, but that's easily adjusted in the mods settings. Since you mentioned the zip gun, I though I would also add this mod as something people might be interested in. I've never used it myself, but it looks interesting.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2125659488&searchtext=scrap

[Goose]

Originally posted by ★Rainmaker★:

If your character has Aiming 0 which by your post he/she absolutely does, that means that your character has never in their life even held a firearm, let alone dealt with safety, aiming, correct posture, how to even hold the weapon, or have zero recoil flinching.

That translates perfectly well to a real life situation too. Even if you take a full minute to put your sights exactly on where you want your bullet to go, if you've never experienced shooting a firearm, you'll miss 9 times out of 10.

I always use firearms and very early too in PZ, and here's how. Get a shotgun, saw it off, and grind Aiming up to at least skill level 6. After that point you can keep on grinding all the way to 10 or use any gun that you want instead.

And since so many players complain about guns being "underpowered" at literally skill ZERO, why is no one complaining about every single other weapon that's also ridiculously bad at skill ZERO?

What's funny is that I do remember someone crying about not being able to oneshot zombies with an underweight character with Axe 0, just because they themselves "like totally could bro".

It's not that complicated. Short answer is git gud.

i think you mfs need to read this comment again.
and again.
and again until you understand it.
because this is the answer right here.

[Der Gerät]

Originally posted by ScoXander:

You think PZ is real to life? Just explain to me, how you can miss your target when you have the barrel right on it?

That's what I'm talking about, this zombie was literally 1 inch away from the barrel and the character missed not once but 21 times. That has nothing to do with being a rookie that is RPG Attack Rating, some fake invisible die is cast and says you've missed.

Because if I get a gun and stand an inch from the target with a rifle looking through the scope, I will hit it because that is called physics.

The Devs effed up with gun coding, because like you said the only way a player is ever going to get good with guns is via shotgun. And that ain't a freaking starter weapon for rookies who even thinks that

cry me a river. Guns are perfect.

[Beltneck]

All those words and nothing indicating what moodles you had active at the time, or what injures you have. Time to do some homework on the wiki, because there are lots of things that affect your damage output with guns.

But if you've never fired a gun before, or received even basic instruction, you can expect results like these under ideal conditions: https://youtu.be/p9tyDzNBNSk

Now imagine the kind of mistakes someone who is exhausted and panicking would make. Should just be thankful at lvl 0 aiming that you don't give yourself a black eye with scoped rifles. drop your gun on occasion, or accidentally shoot yourself. You're not Rambo, quite the opposite really.

[★Rainmaker★]

Originally posted by Beltneck:

But if you've never fired a gun before, or received even basic instruction, you can expect results like these in ideal conditions: https://youtu.be/p9tyDzNBNSk

Very good point. Ideal conditions and room temperature IQ people can get results like these.

Then we can start talking about catastrophic failures that can happen to anybody, regardless of skill level.

Like the time Kentucky Ballistics was using cheap military surplus ammo to fire a break-action 50 BMG.

And in PZ everybody gets loads of guns and ammo from surplus stores. Imagine getting some hot .308 from some greasy pawn shop or something, and then squeezing one off when you've got several lamebrains coming for ya? Badabing badaboom, your face is re-arranged, your dominant hand has a few fewer fingers on it, your ears will ring for a couple of days, and you're lucky if you're still conscious.

[Beltneck]

Originally posted by ★Rainmaker★:

And in PZ everybody gets loads of guns and ammo from surplus stores. Imagine getting some hot .308 and squeezing one off when you've got several lamebrains coming for ya? Badabing badaboom, your face is re-arranged, your dominant hand has a few fewer fingers on it, your ears will ring for a couple of days, and you're lucky if you're still conscious.

Yeah, be thankful your poor condition weapon with questionable ammo only jams frequently, not blows up in your face.

[Goose]

i love how threads like these end up with *real* gun nuts coming in and telling the fake gun nuts that "lmao it could be so much worse if it were actually realistic."

[Beltneck]

Originally posted by Goose:

i love how threads like these end up with *real* gun nuts coming in and telling the fake gun nuts that "lmao it could be so much worse if it were actually realistic."

We're not even nuts, just people who've done a basic firearms safety course so we could get hunting licenses.

They show you the horror stories there, so you learn what not to do.

[Goose]

Originally posted by Beltneck:

Originally posted by Goose:

i love how threads like these end up with *real* gun nuts coming in and telling the fake gun nuts that "lmao it could be so much worse if it were actually realistic."

We're not even nuts, just people who've done a basic firearms safety course so we could get hunting licenses.

They show you the horror stories there, so you learn what not to do.

that works too.

I'm not formally trained. but I have held and shot guns after researching how to not be an idiot.
I'm well aware of safety procedures and the fact that not everyone actually knows that ♥♥♥♥.
threads like these just make me concerned.

[★Rainmaker★]

Just for the record, I'm definitely nuts.

At some point I'm hoping to move to Texas so I can get lots and lots of boomsticks.

Maybe a few pewpews too.