Whats up with the new legal post?

[Flash]

Its been a little while since I played and now that I decided to play it again, I get slammed with a legal pop up claiming all sorts of rights etc. that seem to require permission from the devs for example:

1. What does it mean when it says 'cheating'? You can enable anti cheat coding or settings include the ability to ban players when it comes to multiplayer, but why generalize it to all sorts of cheating? Why should I ask the devs for permission to make cheat mods for gameplay?
2. Adult games are allowed on steam. Why should I require Dev permission to make/create/publish adult mods because they claim mods containing 'pornographic' material is not allowed?

Why are these terms coming up with such restrictions after so many years of gathering a consumer base? I would like a Dev to come up to this thread and explain and if unnecessarily restrictive, make the appropriate changes to their terms etc. policy notes.

[Flash]

Originally posted by EnigmaGrey:

Because the game is successful and TIS is growing into a proper company, so our prior amateur approach to the game’s ToS required revision.

It’s far less restrictive and an easier read than most of the ones you’ll have accepted to play other games or even just use Steam.

Per the ToS, cheating is allowed so long as it is done in accordance with the modding policy: https://projectzomboid.com/blog/modding-policy/

And no, in accordance to Steam’s ToS, you don’t have the right to upload porn. Steam will moderate them as Steam sees fit. Same for us — if we don’t want to be associated with something, we have the right to choose. (E.g. rape and torture mods are a no-go.)

The tldr is “don’t be a ♥♥♥♥” and this just covers our butts should someone choose to be.

1. What your talking about is illegal or country restricted porn. There is an adult section on steam and their primary priority is that you mark the section as 'adult' with corresponding tag. This is not adding like converting the game to porn websites or portals.. there's a difference between the hardcore stuff your mentioning to adult mods. Noone's uploading porn, their uploading adult mods.. Your gameplay does'nt all of a sudden become a red light district or adult game. Rape and torture?? Then mention it as 'illegal or extreme' porn and not just porn.. a nude pic on lets say a skill magazine or a poster is different to it being commercialised or depicting images of some illegal nature

2. Did you read the modding policy yourself? I think I mentioned it clearly that your legal claims (includes modding policy) states 'cheating' as a generalized term. This is not proper terms and conditions. A cheat mod is also cheating... a server where the admin wants to spawn in items or change game conditions is also cheating. Any mods made to the existing game not done through the standard gameplay mechanics is cheating. What your doing is screwing over players by explicitly stating that you have the right to block and remove any modder's rights by claiming its 'cheating' and that your policies are not clear as to specific conditions which is therefore blameable on the buyer/consumer

Your policy should have specificity or it will be report-able. I feel really bad about this after being a loyal consumer having played almost 1800 hrs (and interaction with devs themselves while modding not to mention giving ideas for game mechanics as well) to now seeing some shady info

[Flash]

Originally posted by EnigmaGrey:

I’m not interested in arguing with you, here. If you’re having difficulty interpreting this, then all I can suggest is you get the opinion of legal counsel, as I am not a lawyer and have to trust their judgement when it comes to eulas. Common language is, after all, different from legaleese, but I feel you’re taking a long walk around a short pier in order to find offence, particularly by ignoring context.

Really, I’m sorry to say, but the idea that’s based on which legal in a specific region, is not the case — it’s what company that owns a brand determines is damaging and whether they choose to associate with it or not. Basically the same right we all have - I can’t make you appear in a Spanks and Wanks Quarterly and you can’t force us to. Simple enough, right? That’s all it really says. Same thing for anything derived from the game, including cheats.

I love how you (EngimaGrey) states not wanting to argue and then does so. All these claims should come at the beginning. As Ive explained, there are SEVERAL tid bits that you have encroached on now. Another example:

You started the game with promises of providing AI for NPC. A lot of players bought this game and trusted in those promises. You have been developing the game for this long but everyone still trusted in the game since your providing updates and changes with the promise of AI appearing somewhere. A lot of consumers have since then bought this game seeing how proactive these devs are.
But this is another claim you have revoked with your latest legal stating that the game does not need to deliver on its promises and can at anytime be suspended and the current content is what the customer should be happy about. This may not be some illegal stuff per se but rather some poor organizational behavior that just breaks consumer trust. I will be changing my review and rating with what your company is breaking now after buying in all these consumers with promises that you may never provide.

This is not your first response or post where I have seen a really glaring, disrespectful/unprofessional sort of discussion Enigma Grey. If your having trouble responding without comparing to other games, talking about people being ♥♥♥♥♥ or adding some insinuating comment of disrespectful nature etc. etc. maybe have some other dev respond. As for the legal intrepretation, it will be done if and when appropriate.

[Legion]

The only person being disrespectful here, Flash, is you.

Enigma stated they did not wish to argue, and ended their piece with what can be equated to "All I can tell you is this". That's all that is. You're willfully being inflammatory and borderlining slander at this point.

Yes, NPCs were promised. NPCs are coming. The animal AI is paving the way for that after taking out NPCs several builds ago in order to better refine them properly. That promise has not been revoked as you are claiming. When it was said that the devs could stop the game development at any time, that was them saying that "The game is currently in a good stage and could be considered feature complete", yet you fail to mention how Enigma ALSO said that they would keep on working on the game because of the things they want to add to it instead of releasing the game in full and charging extra content as paid DLCs. There has been absolutely no break in "consumer trust" as you try to claim; the break is in your logic.

You are also one person. You do not hold any ground to make demands of anyone to change anything unless you are someone who is guilty of doing something *obscenely obvious* to purposefully break ToS.

[Flash]

Originally posted by Nomadic:

The only person being disrespectful here, Flash, is you.

Enigma stated they did not wish to argue, and ended their piece with what can be equated to "All I can tell you is this". That's all that is. You're willfully being inflammatory and borderlining slander at this point.

Yes, NPCs were promised. NPCs are coming. The animal AI is paving the way for that after taking out NPCs several builds ago in order to better refine them properly. That promise has not been revoked as you are claiming. When it was said that the devs could stop the game development at any time, that was them saying that "The game is currently in a good stage and could be considered feature complete", yet you fail to mention how Enigma ALSO said that they would keep on working on the game because of the things they want to add to it instead of releasing the game in full and charging extra content as paid DLCs. There has been absolutely no break in "consumer trust" as you try to claim; the break is in your logic.

You are also one person. You do not hold any ground to make demands of anyone to change anything unless you are someone who is guilty of doing something *obscenely obvious* to purposefully break ToS.

Still not sure where I am being disrespectful when stating the obvious. It is a critique on the new legal. Is this disrespectful or are you unable to have a normal discussion on stating your reasons etc. without talking about how I am one person or how I am slandering etc.?

You are stating 'inflammatory' and borderline 'slander' when nothing of the sort exists. If there is actual proof and I say otherwise then these apply.

I also never mentioned that anyone is breaking promises but that the new legal now states that promises CAN be broken at any time. This is FACT. Instead of Enigma Grey stating how I am taking some short walk etc. or that I would have accepted to other games with far more restrictions blindly, all they had to say was that they will continue to keep to their promises even with your legal saying so. Dont know why he/she had to go into defence mode

Also, just a reminder, Im assuming you are a dev as well. I know I am one customer and I have not made any demands but point out discrepancies. Your last statement is a threat to an ordinary discussion insinuating/discrediting a consumer as possibly trying to do something illegal and the difference between them as one person versus you as an entire organization.

I wont be continuing this discussion any further on this thread. Disappointed by the overly negative/superiority complex approach instead of providing a simple assurance to a customer.

[Puppers]

A lot of games have these, to cover their butt. I do not understand why people cant see the purpose of a eula from a business perspective, especially being a game.

Been playing since 2014 never once have i ever had the "feeling" this company is shady. Such a odd thing to get hung up on. I think its pretty awesome the company has been growing from when it(the game) first came out on steam.

[Flash]

Originally posted by EnigmaGrey:

“Latest?”

My dude, even when I bought the game in 2011, it explicitly warned you the button could fall out at any time. No refunds. All you get are any subsequent updates, should they happen. No promises, guarantees, or previses. You can’t actually predict the future, even if we really want to do something, after all.

You never had the things you felt so entitled to due to seeing the new ToS/EULA to begin with. All these docs do is tell it to you straight.

This the first time you read a EULA for a game? Did you even look up your rights on Steam?

Either way, the Sovereign Citizen approach isn’t going to get you anywhere nor are implied legal threats.

Feeling entitled or making demands is not what im doing and yes some of these things are mentioned and I have stated as becoming more a risk with the new legal. As always this is just a discussion of the new legal. Every response is stating that im implying threats... Wow... childish and amateurish response. Either way good day.

[ProtecTron]

Just accept, skip, play, enjoy, die, repeat. Like a normal person.

Every app, site, add, game, thing you do has something like it and prohibits the stuff wich are normally not in the best interest of mankind as a whole...

[Flash]

Originally posted by Puppers:

A lot of games have these, to cover their butt. I do not understand why people cant see the purpose of a eula from a business perspective, especially being a game.

Been playing since 2014 never once have i ever had the "feeling" this company is shady. Such a odd thing to get hung up on. I think its pretty awesome the company has been growing from when it(the game) first came out on steam.

Shady was based on how offended they got. I think Ive already made my point as a very old customer who always trusted and modded in this game. It was a simple, 'even with this we will still be providing support/content without discrimination', instead it became a 'do you know anything, have u done this' etc.
Truthfully other users best avoid this thread because it is just toxic statements making the user look like a bad person.

[ChocoMaxXx]

hey Flash

Press accept and PLAY!
is that simple? go find your porn mod or whatever. we dont mind its just for legal measure. saw some nude mod in the workshop. Take it

[Flash]

Originally posted by EnigmaGrey:

I, too, grew up in the 90s and was told by the TV that I, the customer, am God when it comes to how my burger is prepared.

Doesn’t make it true.

Thread arguing about the ability to upload porn and mad that we can take down hacks, I mean really. It’s not as deep as you imagined.

Shady would be claiming we had a non-irrevocable license to your content or something, not telling you up front what most people already reasonably know.

Stop crying and move on buddy. Sorry I hurt your feelings to this extent by asking about the legal but that was not the intention. As this other guy mentioned, I only stated it since it was a late move on ur part. I wont ask you any more questions even if it were regarding to mods since I dont want these dreaded responses again.

[Flash]

Originally posted by ChocoMaxXx:

hey Flash

Press accept and PLAY!
is that simple? go find your porn mod or whatever. we dont mind its just for legal measure. saw some nude mod in the workshop. Take it

After all that I need some chocolate ice cream XD. And thank you :)

[Puppers]

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Puppers:

A lot of games have these, to cover their butt. I do not understand why people cant see the purpose of a eula from a business perspective, especially being a game.

Been playing since 2014 never once have i ever had the "feeling" this company is shady. Such a odd thing to get hung up on. I think its pretty awesome the company has been growing from when it(the game) first came out on steam.

Shady was based on how offended they got. I think Ive already made my point as a very old customer who always trusted and modded in this game. It was a simple, 'even with this we will still be providing support/content without discrimination', instead it became a 'do you know anything, have u done this' etc.
Truthfully other users best avoid this thread because it is just toxic statements making the user look like a bad person.

I think it is hard to convey tone over text and simple text may come off abrasive sometimes. We are lucky a company takes the time to interact with the community and answer questions, they do not have to do that. I have been in other game forums where there is no moderation, no answers to questions, etc. Just a ♥♥♥♥ show lol. Also Im not trying to point fingers at anyone, if I made you feel like I was attacking you or anything like that sorry and I probably should have worded my responses differently.

In terms of the mods I can totally understand why there would be a eula for a desist and thingie (brain farting the term), lets just say i have seen some degenerate things from you know the internet being the internet( in games) it can just awful sometimes, especially when they add npcs. Maybe try looking at it from all unbiased angles.

[Flash]

Originally posted by Puppers:

Originally posted by Flash:

Shady was based on how offended they got. I think Ive already made my point as a very old customer who always trusted and modded in this game. It was a simple, 'even with this we will still be providing support/content without discrimination', instead it became a 'do you know anything, have u done this' etc.
Truthfully other users best avoid this thread because it is just toxic statements making the user look like a bad person.

I think it is hard to convey tone over text and simple text may come off abrasive sometimes. We are lucky a company takes the time to interact with the community and answer questions, they do not have to do that. I have been in other game forums where there is no moderation, no answers to questions, etc. Just a ♥♥♥♥ show lol. Also Im not trying to point fingers at anyone, if I made you feel like I was attacking you or anything like that sorry and I probably should have worded my responses differently.

In terms of the mods I can totally understand why there would be a eula for a desist and thingie (brain farting the term), lets just say i have seen some degenerate things from you know the internet being the internet( in games) it can just awful sometimes, especially when they add npcs. Maybe try looking at it from all unbiased angles.

Nothing against u lol.
Generalizing legal terms can give them much power. Not usually problematic with good progression games or with responsible staff, but this new legal just shot out of the dark after so many years, hence the attempt at a discussion. Nothing against you and it wont stop me from playing but you yourself can see just how insulting the guy goes from constantly explaining some history of his or comparisons and the like for a guy thats the poc for post responses. Also getting responses from others about nude mods and stuff like there was nothing else in the discussion thread. All good.. just poor showmanship

[Legion]

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Nomadic:

The only person being disrespectful here, Flash, is you.

Enigma stated they did not wish to argue, and ended their piece with what can be equated to "All I can tell you is this". That's all that is. You're willfully being inflammatory and borderlining slander at this point.

Yes, NPCs were promised. NPCs are coming. The animal AI is paving the way for that after taking out NPCs several builds ago in order to better refine them properly. That promise has not been revoked as you are claiming. When it was said that the devs could stop the game development at any time, that was them saying that "The game is currently in a good stage and could be considered feature complete", yet you fail to mention how Enigma ALSO said that they would keep on working on the game because of the things they want to add to it instead of releasing the game in full and charging extra content as paid DLCs. There has been absolutely no break in "consumer trust" as you try to claim; the break is in your logic.

You are also one person. You do not hold any ground to make demands of anyone to change anything unless you are someone who is guilty of doing something *obscenely obvious* to purposefully break ToS.

Still not sure where I am being disrespectful when stating the obvious. It is a critique on the new legal. Is this disrespectful or are you unable to have a normal discussion on stating your reasons etc. without talking about how I am one person or how I am slandering etc.?

You are stating 'inflammatory' and borderline 'slander' when nothing of the sort exists. If there is actual proof and I say otherwise then these apply.

I also never mentioned that anyone is breaking promises but that the new legal now states that promises CAN be broken at any time. This is FACT. Instead of Enigma Grey stating how I am taking some short walk etc. or that I would have accepted to other games with far more restrictions blindly, all they had to say was that they will continue to keep to their promises even with your legal saying so. Dont know why he/she had to go into defence mode

Also, just a reminder, Im assuming you are a dev as well. I know I am one customer and I have not made any demands but point out discrepancies. Your last statement is a threat to an ordinary discussion insinuating/discrediting a consumer as possibly trying to do something illegal and the difference between them as one person versus you as an entire organization.

I wont be continuing this discussion any further on this thread. Disappointed by the overly negative/superiority complex approach instead of providing a simple assurance to a customer.

"But this is another claim you have revoked with your latest legal stating that the game does not need to deliver on its promises and can at anytime be suspended and the current content is what the customer should be happy about."

All they did was state the obvious given that they are in EA and this is a widely known thing, but unfortunately it's people like you that they need to make this specific for. Nothing that was said was revoked. You are literally saying that their new ToS is them breaking a promise they made (ie revoked claim).

You can't see where you're being disrespectful? Of course you can't if you're the offender. Threatening to alter your review based on YOUR misconception of things, using the "I'm a loyal customer" line as if that holds any weight for anything, purposefully mixing up what Enigma has stated in the past, etc. I can go on, and I don't believe you want me to. As far as comparing Zomboid to other games, all Enigma said was that reading these ToS are easier than most games' because of the way it is presented. It's easier to read, and that's objective. You were the one who made an initial comparison between Steam allowing adult games and why Zomboid devs may possibly not allow adult mods. You opened that door, Enigma replied in kind.

You can assume I'm a developer all you want, and all that does is lend you nothing because I am not a developer. I'm not smart enough to be one, nor will I ever have the patience to. But the fact that you have to assume someone is a developer for stepping in and pointing out the errors in your argument shows that you never had any grounds for a competent argument in the first place; you're just here to blow smoke and whine about nothingness.

You came into this whole discussion with a complex that screamed "I demand the answers I want", you weren't given them, and now you're seemingly projecting onto others. There is no "you as one person vs me as an entire organization", mate.

As far as slander, there's plenty. Again, you say they're revoking their claims when it's been said by Enigma plenty of times how that was NOT going to actually be the case. And, again, all they're doing is stating the obvious of Early Access. Furthermore, claiming that Enigma is being defensive when they literally answered you, you replied awkwardly, and they made it known they did not wish to argue. Then you once again pushed the issue with your misconception. And by "taking a long walk around a short pier", that is you being told that you are looking way too deeply into this. There's plenty of assurance if you learn to use the search feature, and it was even stated that basically it's just "we don't want to be associated with porno mods" and even that was not good enough for you.

Best thing you could have done was quit while you were behind because you have no legroom here. You came in halfcocked and wrong, doubled down, and then tripled down. The only person who's been crying here is you; no one's feelings are hurt; no one was being shady in the slightest bit; no one was offended. We're confused, but no one is offended.

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by EnigmaGrey:

“Latest?”

My dude, even when I bought the game in 2011, it explicitly warned you the button could fall out at any time. No refunds. All you get are any subsequent updates, should they happen. No promises, guarantees, or previses. You can’t actually predict the future, even if we really want to do something, after all.

You never had the things you felt so entitled to due to seeing the new ToS/EULA to begin with. All these docs do is tell it to you straight.

This the first time you read a EULA for a game? Did you even look up your rights on Steam?

Either way, the Sovereign Citizen approach isn’t going to get you anywhere nor are implied legal threats.

Feeling entitled or making demands is not what im doing and yes some of these things are mentioned and I have stated as becoming more a risk with the new legal. As always this is just a discussion of the new legal. Every response is stating that im implying threats... Wow... childish and amateurish response. Either way good day.

Except you're wrong. You are both demanding and feeling entitled to the answer of, and I quote from you, "even with this we will still be providing support/content without discrimination". You're not owed that answer. If they want to take down what they consider porn mods because they don't want to be associated with them then they very much can.

You also did imply threats, and make threats. I quote from you again, "Your policy should have specificity or it will be report-able. I feel really bad about this after being a loyal consumer"- implying you would report it for your lack of understanding; "I will be changing my review and rating with what your company is breaking now after buying in all these consumers with promises that you may never provide"- because again of your lack of understanding AND you being objectively wrong; "As for the legal intrepretation, it will be done if and when appropriate"- as if it isn't already obvious what's going on here.

Enigma also only stated to you if you ever bothered to read any other ToS because they all say the same thing, yet for some reason this is the only one you question. They all say the same thing, yet very *rarely* is any kind of mod ever taken down for illicit content. They all say the same thing, yet some need to be stated clearer than just assuming people understand the risks of Early Access.


This is a 100% you problem.

[Flash]

Originally posted by EnigmaGrey:

Originally posted by Puppers:

I think it is hard to convey tone over text and simple text may come off abrasive sometimes.

That and we bring our own baggage to these things.

I ask a question.
I get answer.
I feel stupid (or whatever negative emotion I feel from the response) for having asked.

It doesn’t mean the person who answered was trying to make you feel bad. They don’t know you or likely anything about you, after all.

Though it doesn’t exactly help matters if you double-down and start trying to poke holes pedantically in what you asked for clarification on, insult the presentation rather than the merits of the answer, bring up old history, engage in personal attacks, and threaten things from possible legal action to a negative review.

I seriously dont understand you. Your posts keep stating threats, poking, insulting, presentation but your the one constantly berating with your historical lifestyle etc. facts, pointing out if I've ever read a EULA etc. etc. and trying to bring down my credibility with your so called statements that noone cares about. Maddoxxx gave a simple answer and im guessing he's a dev... that was it... but your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and responding to a post pointed at me by another user. Whats the deal buddy?
In all this, I can go back to playing but your ego is shining through. Can we skip on this drama of yours? I did stay professional for a while but you dont seem to understand that even you are an entity on steam ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ users. You are crossing the line.