I think that these devs are over ambitious with their NPC goals

[mw00]

I imagine that most people want to just some simple scripted encounters with the NPCs. Just some basic AI that can spawn to shoot at you sometimes to put your gear (weapons and armor) to good use. Or some RimWorld like raiders who can raid your base during the late game. And some static NPCs in pre-made settlements to trade with during late game.
But based on dev articles it seems that they want some kind of life sim, STALKERish A-life-like NPCs. Is that even possible with how hard zombie hordes are to kill? It's not about just smashing the zombies, it's about complex navigation, complex tactics, and complex resource management that no AI will be capable of anytime soon. CDDA has been in development for years and even they can't figure out how to make NPCs not die to zombie hordes easily. And it's not just that - these devs seem to be aiming for some kind of complex storytelling generation - yeah sure, how is that going to play out with how evenly spread out zombies are throughout the map?

[Shurenai]

I mean, Superb Survivors is fairly well based on the devs own original NPC code with some updating, And they more or less manage to not all die out in 30 seconds in spite of that fairly basic coding (although I suspect a bit of behind the curtain witchery; granted I only have maybe 20 hours playing with the mod, wasn't my cup of tea as implemented.)

And ultimately, Even IF many of them die- So what? One of the major core premises of the game is "This is how you died."

And you seeing how the NPC died? Or finding their corpse? That's how they died.


Also, Regardless of the zombie count, fighting zombies on Apocalypse difficulty basically amounts to "Strafe backwards and stab with good timing, turn and run when they get too close", which is...really not that hard to do for an AI. Add in to try and keep it to the same general area and it'll go in circles doing the same thing. Simple keep-away AI would give them a great deal of survivability since even the player can just walk their way out of 99% of situations.

Now, I doubt NPCs are ever going to be doing any surviving on the 16x Sprinter insanity that some people are into- But to be frank, That's insanity to begin with and far beyond what the game is really designed for. It's an option; But it's so far removed from the default intended experience that it's a bit unreasonable to expect every feature to be just as usable at that level of removal.

[mw00]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

I mean, Superb Survivors is fairly well based on the devs own original NPC code with some updating, And they more or less manage to not all die out in 30 seconds in spite of that fairly basic coding

In my experience they tend to walk backwards while hitting zombies, which makes them not see zombies behind them, which makes them get sandwiched and die. that or they panic and just keep running away like noob players do. Losing a zombie horde is a complex task, not sure how AI is supposed to do that. If they are going to have limited stamina then they are going to die in this loop.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by error2k:

Originally posted by Shurenai:

I mean, Superb Survivors is fairly well based on the devs own original NPC code with some updating, And they more or less manage to not all die out in 30 seconds in spite of that fairly basic coding

In my experience they tend to walk backwards while hitting zombies, which makes them not see zombies behind them, which makes them get sandwiched and die. that or they panic and just keep running away like noob players do. Losing a zombie horde is a complex task, not sure how AI is supposed to do that. If they are going to have limited stamina then they are going to die in this loop.

I rather disagree on losing zombies being a complex task. Cut two corners in quick succession or go in a house on one side and out on the other, and you'll be out of sight well before they catch up. Or into trees and far off to either side.. Again, you can literally just out-walk zombies. They are slower than you at walking speed- So stamina/endurance isn't much of a factor, you only need to do a bit of light jogging from time to time to correct for your own misgjudgement/bad timing.

As for not seeing zombies behind them, a better AI is..kindof the solution to that, innit. I personally also walk straight backwards while fighting. I just only do so after 100% verifying there is not a single zombie in that direction, and I change directions about every 25 tiles just so I can check- Big ol square, or back and forth. Two simple shapes even an AI can do. An AI can even do a circle far better than a player could. Could also make them just be more aware of their surroundings- Or give them cheat awareness so they have longer to respond to threats coming up behind them, any number of ways to solve the problems.

[mw00]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Originally posted by error2k:

In my experience they tend to walk backwards while hitting zombies, which makes them not see zombies behind them, which makes them get sandwiched and die. that or they panic and just keep running away like noob players do. Losing a zombie horde is a complex task, not sure how AI is supposed to do that. If they are going to have limited stamina then they are going to die in this loop.

I rather disagree on losing zombies being a complex task. Cut two corners in quick succession or go in a house on one side and out on the other, and you'll be out of sight well before they catch up.

That only works in early game rural areas. Try that in Raven Creek, or Louisville at peak population. In Raven Creek your best bet is finding a fence to jump over, and that only gives you a very short time to regain your stamina. Or, the more riskier approach - run inside some building, but it's a 50/50 chance wheter its going to be swarming with zombies inside. With multiple NPCs in an area it would be even harder because zombies would move in random patterns.
btw what happens after NPCs cut two corners? You have to program them to have some kind of memory and "imagination" if you want to simulate how players avoid hordes (as a player you need to imagine the movement of your trail that you can't see). I guess the devs could make them just cheat and disable fog of war for them, but that would lead to some other issues probably.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by error2k:

Originally posted by Shurenai:

I rather disagree on losing zombies being a complex task. Cut two corners in quick succession or go in a house on one side and out on the other, and you'll be out of sight well before they catch up.

That only works in early game rural areas. Try that in Raven Creek, or Louisville at peak population. In Raven Creek your best bet is finding a fence to jump over, and that only gives you a very short time to regain your stamina. Or, the more riskier approach - run inside some building, but it's a 50/50 chance wheter its going to be swarming with zombies inside. With multiple NPCs in an area it would be even harder because zombies would move in random patterns.
btw what happens after NPCs cut two corners? You have to program them to have some kind of memory and "imagination" if you want to simulate how players avoid hordes (as a player you need to imagine the movement of your trail that you can't see). I guess the devs could make them just cheat and disable fog of war for them, but that would lead to some other issues probably.

Comparing to completely and purposefully unbalanced and modded situations is NOT the way to go. That is not in any way, shape, or form within the developers purview, nor is it something they should really be balancing the Vanilla game against. That is a situation for the ravens creek author to solve if they are so inclined to do so; Because the ravens creek author deigned to make their map purposefully overwhelming in a variety of ways to inspire a different kind of play (Literally stated as much in the mod description)

As for louisville, So there wouldn't really be survivors in the city center; Which isn't really surprising given the monumental number of zombies there- Expecting there to be ANY survivors there considering the tactics a player needs to utilize just to get a foothold is a bit absurd. In spite of that, The edges of louisville are still pretty survivable and low-ish density; And there's plenty of map outside louisville for NPCS to spawn and be perfectly fine in.

[Brundi]

Im also a bit doubtfull devs can pull off npcs the way they had in mind, considering how many factors are included for them to survive and thrive in the world, i hope we can get them at the end after probably few years. I believe animals will come out smoothly, but for human npcs, it would be nice if devs would pick one of the latest npc mods, polish it and add it as sandbox option so we stop using npcs mods that lagg and break game eventually. Im unsure how hard would that be, but it would be nice addition for people who are impatient about full release npcs.

[BurlsoL]

Originally posted by error2k:

Originally posted by Shurenai:

I mean, Superb Survivors is fairly well based on the devs own original NPC code with some updating, And they more or less manage to not all die out in 30 seconds in spite of that fairly basic coding

In my experience they tend to walk backwards while hitting zombies, which makes them not see zombies behind them, which makes them get sandwiched and die. that or they panic and just keep running away like noob players do. Losing a zombie horde is a complex task, not sure how AI is supposed to do that. If they are going to have limited stamina then they are going to die in this loop.

Not sure what's bad about this. NPCs fit the role of standard not-too-bright people who somehow survived but didn't really pick up any skills along the way.

If you want them to be a little more useful, you could make it to where they respond to some pre-defined talking commands. (like bound to numpad) to order them to move to thing, hold position, come to me, ect. Whispered when sneaking, talking when normal, shouting when panicked or sprinting. Have them revert to default behavior after 10 ingame minutes if they aren't otherwise occupied. It doesn't need to be a complicated system since they are expendable and are just there to make the world feel more alive.

[stevej018]

well, I hope we can tweak how much npcs there are or what they can do in sandbox. I really like the last human on earth feeling this game has and the music+fog enhances it

[Something Diabolical!]

I just worry about performance post NPC update.

[hardy_conrad]

I'm reminded of that old saying about not letting the best be the enemy of the good. Sure a super sophisticated storytelling AI would be great, but given how long it takes to just fiddle with liquid settings, much less the very long rumoured addition of animals, I'm afraid that by setting their sights high we end up with no NPCs ever, smart or stupid. After all if they prioritized just having functional NPCs there's no reason they couldn't be upgraded at a later date, assuming that's possible.

[Lazy Joe]

My hopes and concerns about npcs:

1) I hope we will have very detailed control over at least the npcs thats siding with us. Sofar what annoyed me about those survivor mods is that you cant never really manage their inventory, you give them a bottle of water, eventually it turns into a empty bottel and theres no way for you to tell them "hey, drop that empty bottle over there, what you holding onto it for, if you never going to refill it?" And sometimes i leave water bottle in my base where they are supposed to "sandbox" and they die of thirst.
I dont mind if the actual npcs turn out to be this stupid but at least let me help them survive by allowing me to manage what they are carrying.

2) picture this scenario: you have a safehouse, and outside you have a yard and you surround the yard with fence, but not closing it off entirely.
how does your npc know which area still counts as "our base"? Can you draw a zone? Must you close off the fence so the npc will acknowledge it? Can you give them orders like "hey, dont go downstairs, ever"?

[CR 918Numbers]

Originally posted by Lazy Joe:

My hopes and concerns about npcs:

1) I hope we will have very detailed control over at least the npcs thats siding with us. Sofar what annoyed me about those survivor mods is that you cant never really manage their inventory, you give them a bottle of water, eventually it turns into a empty bottel and theres no way for you to tell them "hey, drop that empty bottle over there, what you holding onto it for, if you never going to refill it?" And sometimes i leave water bottle in my base where they are supposed to "sandbox" and they die of thirst.
I dont mind if the actual npcs turn out to be this stupid but at least let me help them survive by allowing me to manage what they are carrying.

2) picture this scenario: you have a safehouse, and outside you have a yard and you surround the yard with fence, but not closing it off entirely.
how does your npc know which area still counts as "our base"? Can you draw a zone? Must you close off the fence so the npc will acknowledge it? Can you give them orders like "hey, dont go downstairs, ever"?

I would like to think the 2nd idea works like if you have a couple of people like 1-6 you tell them not to go somewhere they don't but if you have a lot of npcs (Bad idea) they won't all know and just sorta wander down anyway.
So maybe like warning signs or boarding up to not go down and the Ai will see this and avoid it?